I Changed My Life When I Finally Got SMART

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Welcome and a family rooted in Greenville

00:12Real quick, we do have one thing that we have to take care of. Hey, could you help us out? Hit like and subscribe. It really helps us out. Casey McCall Hagen. Good to see you. Thank you for having me. Glad to be here. I was thinking prior to coming in today, I was like, it was an interesting fact that you shared with me the other day that your family was one of the first settlers in Greenville, South Carolina. Tell me about that. It goes down from my grandmother. We were some relation between Vaudrey McBee and the Beatys. And yeah, my family has been here many generations. And, you know, yeah. Yeah. I found it interesting because you don't have an accent. Well, my mother was an English professor. So she was very, you know, strict about how we talked and didn't end our sentences with prepositions and that kind of thing. So in the south, so so were you like a little southern belle growing up?

Growing up the youngest of three girls

01:31Oh, no, I'm the youngest of 3 girls. And I was like my dad's last hope for a boy. So I was very much a tomboy. My parents got divorced when I was pretty young around like, I think I was 6. and i hung out a lot with my dad we'd go to the mountain house and the lake house um i was a a green wing which was like ducks unlimited little kids you know ammo and camo for christmas kind of thing like uh you know i i had a great time i was very much a tomboy and loved it really you would never know that talking to you yeah So I would imagine things have changed a lot over the years. So you grew up, I guess, doing a lot of outdoor stuff. And, you know, as we know, Greenville is like one of the fastest growing areas, you know, in the country.

How did we get here?

02:31But in the true spirit of the show, kind of do me a favor. How did we get here? Well, like I said, I was a tomboy. I was also a gymnast when I was growing up. And I was an early bloomer. And I got a lot of unwanted attention.

Insecurity, body shame and eating disorders

02:58which led to a lot of insecurity, body shame, eating disorders, anorexia, bulimia, just a lot of depression and anxiety. You know, I was just it really messed me up and yeah very insecure didn't you know a lot of social anxiety and just not comfortable in my own skin so at what age did you recognize that do you remember I was in middle school I remember it was like the summer of 5th grade And yeah, and also gymnastics, like, you know, you weigh in and they do your body too. So in both sides, I was already obsessing over, you know, appearance and weight and all that kind of thing. And that kind of just started my addictive personality right there. Where do you think that came from?

A family history of alcohol and a rehab summer

04:07my family they are a long line of alcohol and functional you know a lot of them and a lot of them are in recovery too so that's very cool but Yeah. My oldest sister, um, when she went to college, you know, it was, I was in middle school, the same age. And she asked my parents, um, to send her to a place in Asheville for rehab for cocaine and alcohol. And so the summer of my 8th grade, I spent in Asheville doing a family rehab lesson, learning about addiction, learning about substance abuse, but you know, it didn't stick. It didn't take maybe it was just some good knowledge.

The wedding reception

04:58But when I was around that same age, my mother's best friend got married and she had a reception at her house and the bartenders could care less and I would just order whatever the person right before me ordered, you know, so I was drinking whatever, whenever. And I ended up that night, like I had a great time. I was dancing and having fun and, you know, felt the freedom and the escape that I wanted, um, from my depression and insecurities and everything else. Uh, it was a really great feeling and except that I got alcohol poisoning. I remember the next day, but you know, through all that, through my sister's rehab, um, you know, a bad experience at the end with alcohol. I mean, I, I just, that feeling I wanted to escape. I did not like who I was and I was very uncomfortable. Didn't know who I was and the alcohol helped a lot with that. How old were you? I was 12 when I started drinking. so you you didn't like yourself not at all did somebody tell you or give you any reason to feel that way or well when i was in 9th grade um

The nickname that hit home

06:28these 2 older classmen i think they were juniors they were just jerks young kids that you know now looking back but they nicknamed me butt face because they said my butt looked better than my face and i had that name all through high school because of them and I was also called rebel because I was, I just rebelled. But yeah, that, you know, I could have just brushed that off. But with all the insecurity I had, that hit home. That really hurt. That really embarrassed me. And I was like, don't even want to show my face. Like, am I that

Antidepressants at 15

07:07awful, you know, I mean really it was it was a bad place and I was starting into some depression and major anxiety and I believe I was 15 when I started on antidepressants and All different kinds of medications, psychiatrist and therapist. So you had your first experience where that, you know, oftentimes, and I'm going to steal this from a good friend of mine, Jonathan S. He said, alcohol did for me what a phone booth did for Clark Kent. And, you know, you take that shot of alcohol and it's like you become invincible. Absolutely. That hole closes. What prompted you to, I take it you went to therapy or counseling at 15? I did. I talked to a psychiatrist who was actually one of my gymnast friend's dad. So it was like, I don't know, all he did was talk about his cars. It wasn't really very helpful, um, sessions, but you know, my parents wanted me to go and talk to somebody and he prescribed me the medication. Um, and then he left and I had other doctors come in and like some of them had me on, you know, 3, 2 milligram Klonopin a day. And then I was drinking on top of that.

High school, missed days and forged notes

08:28And I don't even remember like 3 years of my life from that, but you know, all through high school, I drank and smoked pot. I skipped school. Um, they didn't want me to graduate because I had missed more days than I had been present. But I had learned to forge a lot of doctor's notes and had excused absences and was in AP classes and passed the tests. And so they let me go. So you were good. You were good in school. Like you could pass the test. And I would ride around all day, just drinking in my car. What impact do you think that the medications had at such a young age? I felt damaged for sure. You know, like different and damaged and I started just with the mindset of drugs and alcohol make me feel better. may it be but then again you know your depression and anxiety medication doesn't work so well you drink on it and use on it so you know both ways yeah what impact do you think that that had looking back on

09:43A lot of bad behavior. I mean, I was a cheerleader and got kicked off for being drunk. They said insubordination. But, you know, I played softball, I played tennis, but I was drunk. I mean, seriously, like all my high school, I was just drunk.

College of Charleston

10:01And then I went to College of Charleston. And that opened up a whole new world of drugs. And I went and roomed with my best friend, so that was a little bit of comfort. but I, at this point I was so just insecure that just to walk across the campus like all I would be like they're laughing at me. they're looking at me. oh my god, I can't do it. you know just. it was just terrible anxiety. so I just would drink and drug. that's what I did, and you know, started skipping classes and getting in trouble. and then, my sophomore year, I was living with 3 girls and, unbeknownst to me,

Her parents take her to rehab

10:49my parents show up at the door together. they've been divorced since I was six and they show up at the door together and said: you've been on the couch, for you know, 2 weeks get up, we're taking you to rehab, and they took me down to Ridgeview in Atlanta. now, through your childhood, you said your parents got divorced at an at an early age. or were you close with both parents? or yes, I was. I was really upset because, like my dad, started sleeping in the guest room and my mom, which is like, oh, it's just snoring like they wouldn't be honest with me, you know. and then it was just bang, we're getting divorced and you know my dad was not. it did not want it, um, but yeah, i spent a lot of time with him. there wasn't any trouble between like custody or anything like that. they were very um amicable with each other. but my dad started drinking really heavily. i remember a time my friend and i were at my my house and my dad was going to pick us up and he like fell out of the car. like just. i mean it's terrible, but As I said, you know, the alcohol just permeated my family. I mean even extended family. It's just. Well, that's where we can see the genetic aspect of the disease of alcoholism and substance use, Absolutely

12:19The addictive personality. So I have a question. So, because as somebody that you know, I deal with a lot of different demographics as well as, oftentimes, adolescents, you know families come in and you know start having challenges with the youth.

What might have helped

12:40What do you think could have been done differently that would have been effective or more helpful when you know you went to go see the therapist at 15? Do you think there could be some other alternatives as opposed to- I mean Klonopin or the Benzo. Do you think that there could have been a different approach? Very much. There could have been more emphasis on, you know, kind of self-acceptance and you know not having the body shame, just accepting myself. that would have been huge. I don't know how to magically do that. I wish I did, but I, you know, I think it all just taught me a lesson, so it was meant to be. It's interesting you talk about. yeah, I went to college at Charleston as well and I'm from Charleston and I remember, and I've probably never shared this, but I remember because you know I didn't have a plan initially leaving high school. so I left home and, Through a series of events, Decided: I'm gonna get my my act together and I'm gonna go go to school. So I came back to To Charleston. I was, you know, 17, 18 years old and I remember My mom wouldn't let me stay in the house. She was like you're gonna get a dorm and that whole experience for like the first 6 months. I was like scared to death and

14:18I'm in a building. I got this roommate in this dorm who I have no idea, who this guy is- And all of these people, and there's thousands of people walking all over. you know St Philip Street, the King Street, and you're just like lost in this sea of people. I could just I could really identify with that. But you said you went to rehab in Atlanta. What was that experience like?

Three months in rehab in Atlanta

14:46That was 3 months And at the beginning I met this wonderful, wonderful doctor who did a little interview with me, you know, before accepting me in, And I read it, I read it frequently, And he said I just had this like dark cloud over me, Like I really wanted to shine. but I had this dark cloud over me And in rehab it was inpatient. I was there and I learned a lot. you know I really did. But I ended up getting some free time to go out at night with some other people and we started drinking and doing. you know they wanted me to go on a halfway house and of course I talked my way out of it and got my own apartment, And then I started working

15:41And there was a liquor store right next door to where I was working at the outdoor center, And I just kept right on. I wasn't ready. You know I keep like attaining this knowledge about it, but I wasn't ready, Um, And also at this point, I had no idea who I was.

A chameleon and people pleasing

16:02I was a chameleon. I'd be whoever I needed to be to get what I wanted. And so I was never true to myself. It was always about getting what I wanted and people pleasing. So I was not in a good mindset for a long time, And still the depression and the anxiety and the mental health is a big thing with me. I hate the stigma with it And I do have hope for people. So that's a big part of my recovery too. What do you think you wanted? As in At that time, you were like: I get what I wanted. What do you think you were looking for? Oh, I mean like drugs or alcohol or whatever. you know I just if I needed to hang out with these people for this, then I would. if I need to hang out with these people for that, then I would you know I'd find a way. And eventually

An outdoor leadership school in Wyoming

17:00I left Atlanta and my parents sent me to Knowles. It's a national outdoor leadership school. They thought maybe that could be something. So I was out in the Wind River Range in Wyoming for 3 months. We had one month we were rock climbing, which was it was amazing. It was beautiful. Another month we were orienteering and learning the river and then we went down the Colorado River to the Green River the last month and of course you know I didn't have anything I couldn't use, and that was the first time I had been sober for that long. but I get back, then I go right back to my party. so let me ask you: during that time did you have periods of happiness? I did, Yeah, I think. getting away, you know, sometimes they say like the geographical move is, is not healthy, is not what you need to do. But I just needed a break, I needed a reprieve. you know just from life, And I learned so much

18:12And realized you know how big the world is with all these other people there, because you're like you were saying at Charleston, I totally felt the same way, like how does everybody else know what they're doing? and I don't you know like. it was totally that feeling. yes, I'll share this with you. I was at a conference many years ago and they brought this guy in. I think he was from Switzerland and he was probably pushing 70 right. He had written like 15 books. He's this world-renowned, And we're in the Gilead Auditorium packed house, and he starts out. He says, you know, I want to share something with you. He was like: think about your phases of life. And when you're in first or second grade and you're like, well, maybe whenever I get to middle school they'll kind of let us know what it's all about

19:10And then you get there and then you're like, well, maybe when I get to high school they'll kind of let me in on the secret. And then, well, maybe if I go to college and then before you know it, you're 40 years old And you realize nobody knows what the hell's going on. And here's this highly acclaimed and accomplished man. And he says: the more that we learn, the more we realize we don't know anything. And I still feel like that, sometimes Totally feel lost. So you come back from being out in Wyoming. What did you do then?

Waiting tables and meeting her husband

19:47started working downtown at a restaurant called sassafras. it was just opening and good group there. that's where i eventually met my husband. but you know i was waiting tables. we were really busy restaurant. so i'd get off work with a pocket full of money, you know, clock out and get a shift beer, and then it was off to the races. you know, my drugs would just walk in. um, i could, you know, sweet talk my way into drinks all the time. i mean it was just game, you know, and I was damn good at it. I was really good at it. Um, so it was a very not healthy environment. Um, the hospitality industry is not proven a healthy place for me to be, even though my husband is a chef. but, um, Yes, we met and got married in, and he's from upstate New York. So it's kind of funny that he's got him a southern debutante. Well, it seems like during that period you had some form of happiness. Fair to say: or you're just like this will do, or I mean, Yeah, it was more just content. This is what it is. And with the medications, they are numbing too. You don't feel the lows but you don't feel the highs.

Her dad's death and the morphine

21:18That really came into play when my dad was sick and about to pass away Gosh, It was pretty quick. He just was supposed to go in to get a stent for dialysis. But that night he had a clot from what they had done And he was in his home for a few days because luckily he had everything planned out. he had his uh obituary, pictures, obituary written. he had all the hymns picked out and, like written at an upbeat cadence, and i mean he had it all planned out. so that was very lucky. but we were feeding him morphine for, like the past. you know, 5 days and man, i tell you that morphine was calling me um, because my dad was unexpected. it wasn't like a slow sickness, it was all of a sudden and even to this day I'm like. I feel like I should have felt worse. I don't know, but all I could do was think my dad needs this morphine more than me. my dad needs this more than me, but I that that was only

22:324 years ago and I have not had a craving like that in a long time, and that was kind of scary. were feelings hard for you. I was very sensitive, I mean I was. I was a happy, happy kid, and it was just when all these insecurities kicked in. I hated who I was

Getting sober in 2008

23:00just kind of was in the periphery, you know, doing my thing, and so when I finally decided I was done, drinking was 2008. my husband and I had some problems and it was getting rocky and it was my fault. he worked at night because he was a chef. i worked during the day, so we never saw each other. so i'd get off work and go sit in the bar all night and do stupid you know. um so in, i got my sister to take me to carolina center and they put me on the detox side for a couple days and then they moved me over to the psych side, and it was like that time- I mean I was 30 years old- that I realized how entwined the 2 were, you know. and also I realized, starting at 12, I had really stunted, like my emotional growth, and

Feeling 12 years old at 30

24:11I felt like 12 years old when I got sober at 30. Seriously, like you know, I had numbed and escaped so much that I didn't live life and learn lessons and I felt I was behind everybody else. So at some point I'm sure you and your husband, prior to getting married, you've had conversations about. I've had challenges with substances in the past. What was his response to? Well, he, we would drink and party hard, And actually I thought maybe he was having trouble with it too, but he just quit. He could just put it down. He didn't care And he was very much about getting me healthy. And when did he do that? When he realized this was causing a problem between when I went to Carolina center and stopped drinking, that was, and so he stopped too, And that wasn't a problem for him at all. And- And I really liked the Carolina Center- I was in the IOP and that's where I learned about the brain and how addiction affects the brain, you know, and the limbic system and all that kind of stuff, And I found it fascinating and I love the neuroscience of it all. That's what sparked my interest.

Miscarriages and her son

25:39so we started trying to have a family. i had um, 2 miscarriages which are really hard. then i finally had my son. um, it was a very hard pregnancy. he was early, he was jaundiced. we were in the children's hospital for a while. you know he had to sleep in this, this light bed, this bilirubin bed, for like 2 months. so i couldn't like hold my brand new son, and I really got depressed. I was down and out, um, having a real hard time for about 5 or 6 years Now. were you sober when you got pregnant with your son. I was. when I got out of the Carolina center, I started going to some AA meetings, Um, and of course I was like a wallflower and I never said anything. I just sat there

26:28for months and met a few people or knew a few people after.

Shut down at an AA meeting

26:33But one day I went into this meeting and I was just rock bottom and I raised my hand and I said: you know, I am just so depressed, And this older gentleman was like: this is not the place for that. This is about alcohol. And so that shut me down. I was so embarrassed I couldn't. you know, I was like I tried and I got shot down. So I mean I, just like you know, curled up in a ball kind of thing, And so I was a dry drunk for ten years while raising my son. I didn't drink, I didn't do meetings, I didn't do anything to better myself, my health, um, i was just kind of surviving for a while. so you, are you saying that that experience where that gentleman made that statement, turned you off day? absolutely, i was like hell. no, this is not. i'm not comfortable that you know. i'm not safe. i. i totally just turn my back on it.

A response about the rooms

27:45I want to. I want to camp out here for a second, Because there are some things that I think do need to be said. I think I think some, some individuals that have camped out in those rooms for a long time need to go back to basics and reread that book. There's a lot of bad behavior that's taking place from people who have sat in those rooms for a long time. Words like love, intolerance, is our code, Never to be critical of somebody, only to be helpful. That's my only aim, because I've seen that happen time and time and time again over the 20 plus years of trying to find recovery. And of course, I'm one of those people who can put some years together and I stopped doing those things, But I have also been around for long enough to see where we need to get back. If the 12 step recovery path in alcoholics is your pathway, I think it's important to familiarize yourself with the book and a thing called principles, Because this is the last stop on the block. And you know that message. we carry a message, And you know, I just I don't think that there's any place for that, And I'm sorry that that happened to you, And let this be an example that you know by the grace of God, because people die right, And I've seen it and I've had people from that. And so that's why I love why we have the opportunity. So you said ten years and I think your son was probably your. why

29:35Is that fair to say Yes, yes, I mean he was my focus. now, were you still going to therapy and I was still on medications like check-ins, and then my doctor decided he wasn't taking insurance anymore. this was a doctor I'd had for about 15 years. so I started doctor shopping, which is awful, I hate it. but um, I ended up hearing some good things about this gentleman. so I went to um

A misdiagnosis and a hospital stay

30:05see him and the visit was weird like I was in a chair and he was at his desk and he was looking at the computer the whole time like not even me and he was just asking me questions like I was filling out a quiz or something and he said you know I think you're bipolar He said, I think you're like bipolar light. So I'm gonna put you on this. And then I went back a week later and he's like, well, how are you feeling? And I was like, I'm going to throw this chair through the window. I mean, I was just enraged. It was just not the right medication for me. And instead of him being like, okay, well let's get you help. I'll call the cops on you. And I was like, dude, you know, this guy, I just can't even, but, um, So he ended up sending me to this awful, terrible place in Traveler's Rest where I was sitting at the table. There were very few people there. I was like one of the youngest ones. I was sitting at this table and this woman shuffles by and uses the bathroom on the floor. keeps going and somebody comes by with a rag cleans it up and sets it on the table where i'm sitting and i'm just like this is insane um i was the only girl on this on the ward that i was on and the first night there i couldn't i couldn't sleep and i went and talked to the nurse and said you know i can't sleep can i have something whatever and for some reason she thought i was getting

31:38all worked up and called the doctor and they ended up giving me probably enough Haldol for an elephant, a straight jacket and put me in solitary confinement just for asking for something to sleep with that night. And it was a misdiagnosis and a medication I shouldn't have been on, which is why my behavior was that way. And so after that, I called my husband the next day. I said, get me out of here.

Marshall Pickens and a doctor who helped

32:13And I went to Marshall Pickens. There I met a doctor dr. Parsons who was amazing and straightened me out Finally so that other doctor really messed me up. I lost a lot of faith in that whole profession at that time but Yeah, I mean I'm like know 8 now and I've been on antidepressants since I was 15 I mean it's sad it really is sad and I'm trying to remember where I was oh so I went to Marshall Pickens and he really helped me out and I got out of there and I decided I needed to do something

Coming to FAVOR

33:08And my mom was friends with the lady who started FAVOR. So I decided I'd come give it a try. And I went to the women's meeting. What year was this? This was the end of 20 17. Shout out Jane Presley. Yes. God, we love you. Yes. Thank you.

Getting sick: the gut-brain connection

33:29Actually, let me let me backtrack a little bit because of my depression and anxiety. I started getting really sick. I was losing weight. I couldn't eat. Um, it was for months and then finally my son was having a birthday party and I couldn't get out of bed and go to the birthday party and that was like it. And so I went to my doctor and stomped and put on a fit and ended up going down to Augusta University and having a lot of tests done because I had ulcers, I had a hiatal hernia, I had gastroparesis where part of my stomach was paralyzed, And this is when I found out the whole gut brain connection. You know, when my mind's sick, my body's sick, my body's sick, my mind's sick. And, you know, the vagus nerve and everything is so connected your mental health with your physical health. And I finally figured out, you know, some food allergies I had and things to eat, things not to eat and started getting healthy again. And that's when I came to favor. I went to the women's meeting and Trish was there. And I remember them saying it wasn't to me, it was to someone else.

"Let us love you till you can love yourself"

34:43But they said, let us love you till you can love yourself. That really hit home to me and I felt safe there. So nobody cut me off. Nobody was telling me, you know, this is not the place for that. This was the place for whatever I needed. And so I Trish became my coach. And, you know, again, with the AA, at this point, I kind of felt like it was all or nothing with AA. And I didn't like that. I didn't want to be all in. I just want to put my toe in, you know, like get a little bit. And so then I started branching out at FAVOR because they offered different meetings.

Trying different meetings and getting certified

35:26And I tried Recovery Dharma, really enjoyed that. I did Recovery and a lot of the all recovery meetings I ended up going to get my peer support specialist certification and at that time favor had volunteer coaches so I had people I coached and really found out you know about the service and how Helping others helps me so much. And it's like a symbiotic relationship. It's just amazing how once you get out of your head, you can have peace. Because I would

Cognitive distortions

36:14ruminate and I learned about these cognitive distortions like catastrophizing things and black and white thinking like the all or nothing thinking like I had with the AA personalization I was anybody said something I thought they were talking about me you know no matter what it was I thought they were talking about me And, which really is very selfish, you know, that I'm just so self-absorbed thinking that everybody's talking about me and laughing at me and even, I'm even on their mind. I am all I think about. Right, right. So it was really eye-opening, and that's when I started, I feel, to recover. Like, I was taking from Dharma. I was taking from Recovery II.0. I was taking from the women's meeting, and I was kind of patchworked my own recovery the way I wanted to do it. So let me ask you this. What are some of the things that you think you got from those avenues and those pathways that helped you in your recovery?

A Buddhist life and a growth mindset

37:24I really like to try and live a Buddhist life. You know, yes, there is suffering, but it's how you deal with it. So I'm really trying to have a more positive attitude growth mindset instead of the fixed mindset I had about certain things and realized I could take what I wanted from those meetings and leave the rest. You know, it didn't have to be all or nothing. And because of favor, I started getting more comfortable. And as I said, you know, building some tools and I started going back to AA meetings. And actually, I have an AA home group that I love and I've been to NA Serenity meetings here.

Finding SMART Recovery

38:18But then I found Smart Recovery. And Smart Recovery is self-management and recovery training. It was founded by therapists and psychologists. And what grabbed me was my spirituality. I wouldn't say I was atheist. I'd say agnostic.

Questioning God as a child

38:45I had this friend in childhood named Pippa, Pippa Pridgen, and her dad was the priest at Christ Church where we were at church. And I would spend the night with her and every morning we'd wake up and he'd have a little saying for us, you know. And one morning we woke up and he was like, every day you wake up, you're a day closer to your death. And that freaked me out. I don't think he meant it to, and maybe I just took it the wrong way, but that was all about questioning God. Then the big bang happened and it was like, I don't know what to believe anymore. Um, all these people have this faith in this God and, you know, give it to him and he relieves you. Well, I've prayed, I've tried, um, I don't have that connection. I can't feel it. interrupt you. No, yeah. But I was going to ask you, because, you know, growing up here in this area, we're in the buckle of the Bible Belt. Was there any type of church or any type of religion in the home? Yeah, we were members of Christ Church. My grandfather started Christ Church School. We were very into the church. I got confirmed there. And it was kind of just

40:07i just did what i was supposed to do. you know, i didn't really absorb any of it, i don't think. i just kind of did the motions, and that's what i did a lot of the time i was in my head too much and i just did the motions i needed to do. but i don't think I took advantage of what was being given to me. But when Father Pridgen said that, yeah, it crashed my world And for a long time I didn't know what to believe, I was very confused, you know. then, finally, with the aa, i heard good, orderly direction and i was like, okay, maybe i could get on board with that. and i still struggle today with my spirituality, which is why smart was where i found my most important part of my recovery. um, it is an evidence-based, you know, factual, um way of trying to- uh, you know, learn that your feelings are leading to, or these thoughts are leading to, these feelings that are leading to these behaviors. Um, and mine were all pretty negative, You know. um, if somebody was talking about me, I get pissed and I'd hold a grudge, and, you know, have fights with people and that kind of thing. and again i i still didn't really know who i was. i mean i'm weighing up in ages now, but it took a really long time for me to accept myself and to start to heal. um, But slowly, I am a slow learner. slowly it started to happen

The hierarchy of values

41:58And there was an exercise in one of the SMART meetings where I was called the hierarchy of values. And so you list your values. you know, may it be your family, your career, your pets, your, you know identity, whatever it may be, all the things that are most valuable to you. And above that you put your substance, because that is what was the most important thing. It was more important than everything else on that list, And that was an eye opener to me. I was like: damn, you know, like. I knew that in the back of my head, but to see that as an exercise really hit home to me. And so, on the flip side, it was like, if you want to keep all those values, recovery has to be on the top of the list. That's how you keep them, That's how they fall into place.

How SMART works: CBT and neuroplasticity

42:54And smart recovery is a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy, dialectical behavioral therapy and rational emotive behavioral therapy. So it's about changing your thoughts, to change your behavior. like I said, it's based on neuroplasticity that our addictive brains are wired in a certain way. after years and years and years of using, and with a lot of practice, a lot of repetition, we are able to kind of atrophy those pathways and make new ones. with these better behaviors, these stronger behaviors, And hopefully that will stick and slowly change from that sick thinking to a much wiser mind. And that's when I started coming into myself. So I have lots of questions. All right. So so do you have any? give me an example. So one, the first question like: how do I change a thought? But before that, all right, Sick thinking, All right. Do you have some examples of sick thinking? and how do you change that?

Disputing irrational beliefs

44:05Yeah, one thing and another tool we do is called DIBS. It's Disputing Irrational Beliefs. You know like if I don't get a drink, I'm going to die. Or you have this craving and you know you're thinking I'll go snag from somebody, or you know, do something bad. Well, realize that one. you know this thought is not helpful if I'm trying to get better and that, no, you're not gonna die if you don't get that drug. you know it's, it's catastrophizing again. um, so you have to replace. you know, i can't, i don't with. i can try this. um, it's kind of like waking up and instead of going: oh, what do i have to do today? it's man. what do i get to do today? um,

The hula hoop

45:09a getting a lot out of ego. uh, learning the hula hoop. you know what you can control, which is me and my thinking and and my values. i can't control other people or what they say, or anything else, so i just stay in my hula hoop. um, i really try to practice um changing, because I ruminate on things and will go off, you know, in my mind and drive myself crazy a lot. But I've started meditating, which really helps move in my body, really helps exercise, you know, replacing the unhealthy things with more healthy things, And eventually your brain will

46:07catch on and you begin to approach the world definitely differently and see yourself differently. and for me, and started to blossom in recovery. I wasn't, you know, ashamed of it. I wore it like a badge. you know, I was proud, I damn kicked this shit, you know, and I feel like I got really lucky to have this second chance, because a lot of people who may not even have an addiction problem, but they have, you know, personality problems and emotional problems, but they don't have something to like. stop them in their tracks and make them look at themselves and really take inventory and change the ways that aren't good for you. So I am so thankful for my recovery and my second chance of getting to do this. You said changes. right. So there's a couple of things. because you said when you were introduced to SMART Recovery, there was an aha moment. Could you tell me more about that? Like what? what was it that was? do you remember when the light went off?

The aha moment

47:24Yeah, it was when I did that values and realized that I put my drinking and my drugging above my son, above my husband, above you know who I was and everything I wanted in life, And I did not want substances to dictate my life anymore. So you said that you had to make changes. What were some of the changes? Maybe you could tell us.

Volunteering and becoming a SMART facilitator

47:47I started volunteering. Um again, I said I got the um South Carolina, the peer support specialist. I went to get accredited for a facilitator for smart meetings and started holding smart meetings here. Um, I went out to a. you know, i get on dharma meetings again like i. just i like to pull from all over. i like to learn all different ways and figure out what resonates with me. i got to know people. i got to open up to people. i started seeing how much i wanted to help. um, It's so hard

48:35I want to fix people, But you know you learn. no, you just have to be there for them and help them, urge them to make the right decisions. I can't do it for them, But SMART has given me a lot of tools in how to help other people. I've actually got a guy named well, I won't say his name, but he was in my meetings when I first had him here about 3 years ago, And he and his mom would come all the time. And then I had to stop my meetings and started again last year, And he saw my name and came back in, and he is now a facilitator. he went through training and and got his smart certification, and we're really trying to spread smart through the southeast, because i very much am about the mental health that's associated with addiction. i mean when you're stuck in that sickness when something else rules your life, and you know i ended up in jail, i ended up in solitary, i ended up. you know all these jails, institutions and somehow, you know, scared death and i had lost a lot of people to heroin actually. and for some reason i told myself, if i ever did that, i know i'd die. i knew i would, because i'd love it. So for some reason I did not get to that point. uh, thankfully, but like I said, it was just 3 years ago with my dad that I thought: Hey, I hadn't had a drink in. you know, 12, 15 years, I'm good. No, no, no, no, It's ongoing, It's a lifestyle, It's a journey there. You're never recovered, you know. I may get those tendencies, but now I know how to deal with them. Now I know not to succumb to the negative side.

Struggling with spirituality

50:41want to go back you said you said I struggle with spirituality mm-hmm in what ways what are some of the struggles or challenges in that space again I said like the Big Bang so I really liked the the science and I liked prove it to me you know prove it to me and I guess being in the South too, I got soured with overly zealous people in their churches and kind of just got really turned off by it like you guys are so stupid that it's like a cult you know i almost thought like they're just brainwashing you telling you about this god who is not even there um when you die you die you're 6 feet under you know that's it and it was hard for me to get out of that mindset um But then I was like, who the hell am I to, you know, question that? And that's what it is. It's about faith. And maybe I don't know, but

52:00I can still follow. I can still have hope that, you know, there is more. I still struggle with it. I do. But I'm in a much better place now. Again, like I said, I do a lot of meditation, you know, self-reflection, journaling, a lot of work on me. I'm glad that you said that, journaling. It's a common thing that I've started to I absorb a lot of information from a lot of different cross sections. And one thing, whether very accomplished people, high functioning CEOs, people that seem to have it together, there's this common theme about journaling, right? What do you have to share with our audience, your experience? What is that like for you? What impact has it has?

All things journaling

53:04Just speak to us on all things journaling. Well, I do have this little exercise I do sometimes where if I have something kind of haunting me, I'll write it on a piece of paper and I'll burn it over a candle and watch the smoke go up. And that's how I let it go. I watch the smoke go and I let it go. and i try very hard not to come back to it um i need that visual that's helpful and so like journaling it's when like when you share you know whatever it is is bothering you loses its power once you talk about it and i believe the same thing once you write about it once i get it out um You go back and you read and you learn so much about yourself that you didn't realize like hey, you know I didn't know that stuff back then and I was doing okay and a Journal every day and I try to focus on the gratitude I Do a little 3 things that I'm going to check off for that day. Just little things, but just to have a feeling of accomplishment a little bit. May it be, you know, plant this plant or, you know, water this one or whatever. But I have so many journals and writing really helped me just get it out. Again, it helps it loses power a little bit. And, you know, I had a lot of negative things happen. You know, like I said, the institutions, the jails was rape. And I've learned that like when you're in a setting and I'm sharing these things that eventually your brain can kind of lessen the harshness of the bad memories because I can picture being in this room with you where I'm safe and kind of put that instead in my head. Like, yes, that happened. But I remember Nathan was so understanding and he was here. And so that kind of helps

55:19turn the negativity or lessen it a little bit um so it's just ways of healing i've learned and a lot of i read a lot of neuroscience books and love the brain and um Yeah, it's fascinating to me. And there's a lot to be said. You know, we had a supervision yesterday. And, you know, one thing we get to this point, there are seasons working in this space and especially coming out of, you know, typically after the first of the year into spring, you're just you're. caseloads or you're just wheels are falling off but when you get to about this point and Huberman I put on a video because stress and stress management and he has a great video if you'd like to go check I recommend always checking in with stuff I think he's probably one of the best and in the game to explain things that take place in the brain or neurologically he just has a very articulate and understandable way in the way that he communicates. But there was a series, there's a guy named Tim Ferris. And we did a workshop a couple weeks ago or a month ago, I forget. And he the reason why I mentioned his name, because he had a beautiful way of kind of explaining what he has a thing called morning pages or goal setting. And I've heard this common theme when you talk about the brain. Something happens when you pick up a pen and a paper and you write it down. It's a way to connect with you. It's a way to engage and lock in with what's going on, right? And

57:12I love the way that he says, well, no matter what, you know you got whatever you're afraid of or whatever's bothering you. It's on that piece of paper. And there's a connection with the brain where I think you can get some emotional space as well as our brains left unchecked will run riot, right? And they will make matters or blow it up. But also at the same time, I think you can come up with manageable solutions. to that so in the in that really smart goals are something that i have come to i rely on smart goals and in helping people because you know when we look at recovery and you said like that all or nothing well man we don't need to start with all or nothing Right. Just like I mean, the evidence shows, you know, I don't need to necessarily send you away for 3 months to lock you down on your first court. Like you start with the smallest because the numbers dictate you. There's just as much success as the least amount of treatment as the longest. Right. I mean, if you want to fact check that some of the evidence is in the Beyond Addiction book in Coaching Families.

SMART goals

58:27So SMART goals are, you know, specific, measurable, achievable, time-specific, right? So it's not, hey, I'm not just going to go out and run a marathon, but hey, I can go take a walk. right if if i'm not going to be a ceo at a company tomorrow but i can take steps to hey maybe get some education learn you know get on a track get some develop specific achievable goals and and take things incrementally You know, Rome wasn't built in a day and neither are our dreams. And I think that's what I have have really found had professionally and personally some tremendous impact with some of the stuff that that smart teaches. And so that's why I was excited to have you come in and speak on that because not a lot of people are familiar with it. And, you know, in the spirit of what we teach, it's not any one thing. It's a little bit of everything. Right. And so, you know, it's a little bit of spirituality. It's a little bit of your physical activity and mindset. There's benefit to that, you know, just from the science like you want, you know, regulation of serotonin, dopamine levels and endorphins. Right. We can do some physical activity. There's benefit, right? You talk about the mental and emotional aspect. Journaling helps me with my mental health. I deal with a lot of stress. I deal with a lot of pressure. There are a lot of projects that go on. There's a lot of different. I can't do all this shit in my head, right? That journal has had an impact. As well, I think the most important thing is connection. Cause we didn't, you didn't just learn all this stuff by yourself, did you? Absolutely not. I was introduced to it here and excuse me. Um, you know, like I was nervous coming in here.

Breathing, mindfulness and Lao Tzu

1:00:32And with SMART, I knew like the 4, 7, 8 breath, you know, you go in for 4, you hold it for seven and out for 8. So anytime you exhale longer than you inhale, you're calming your body. Mindfulness is huge in SMART recovery. You know, there's a great quote from Lao Tzu that I love, who said, Depression is living in the past. Anxiety is living in the future. So be present and at peace. And I recite that and also the serenity prayer that is also in my head a lot, a times. I cannot control other people. I cannot control what they do. All I can control is how I respond to it. And hopefully I don't react. I respond. And, you know, with SMART, what also got me is we're not even about abstinence. We're just about changing your behavior so you're healthier. And we don't use labels. We don't say I'm an alcoholic. We don't say I'm an addict because it's a little negative self-talk in a way. And

1:01:41You know, I had a hard time with chicken or the egg. Was it my mental health or was it my addiction first? You know, and which one do you do? I start with the addiction or do I start with the mental health? So I don't know. It's all just been fascinating to me and I think it's different for everybody. But the mental aspect, I also work with NAMI and the National Alliance of Mental Illness and try to you know as you said it's it's not like you're crazy and pulling your hair out it's more like you're overwhelmed um life is like so fast right now and to try to keep up and as you know like you who has all these people come into them you have to have a way to center yourself And using the SMART tools, I do that. And the best thing is, you know, SMART can be a complement to any other way of recovery. It is not instead of at all. It is

1:02:49enhancing everything else because those talk about the addiction smart talks about the mental health of it um and so that is what drew me in that's what i needed so i've been dying to ask this question when we first started you said i don't know i didn't know who i was and then you made a statement i know who i am

Who she is today

1:03:20So tell me, who are you? I'm intense. I Try to, I love to be the one that smiles at somebody and then they smile. They didn't mean to, you know, like you got, gotcha. I got you kind of thing. Um, hold the door, help people out. Let the guy in front, um, with less groceries go ahead, you know, be kind to people, um, help when you can, you know, I do, uh, work with a lot of organizations, a lot of volunteer work, uh, around the city. It's giving back. It's service. It got me out of my head, out of my selfishness, my ego, my me, me, me, me, me. And I start to focus on other people and I grow and I learn through these interactions. Like you said, it is connection is the opposite of addiction. And you let people in and you have relationships. Some work, some don't. But you learn a lot about yourself throughout it all. And, you know, it's really hard when you have a whole bunch of people in recovery that are all trying to, you know, all different places and all different, you know, anger, a lot of anger, a lot of shame, a lot of guilt. And

1:04:50A lot of, why doesn't my family see how great I'm doing now? So it's a lot of acceptance. I can't change these things. I need to just, you know, gratitude, be grateful for what I have. And I am You know, you flip that switch. It's not from I'm less than, um, I'm not enough. I'll never will be enough to I'm not so bad. You know, I want to help. I like to people please, but I've learned boundaries. To protect myself because I can't overextend and get lost in others. But you know all these things I'm learning about myself And actually I am planning to go

1:05:53It's a toss now between Bali and Costa Rica and I'm going to go get my yoga certification because I really like to incorporate the yoga, you know, the Zen mindset again. like being calm not being worked up not worrying about keeping up with the joneses not worrying about what everybody thinks um just doing my thing you know um It's been working out. I would love because I have this thought, you know, we have a lot of a lot of families and there will be a lot of family members that that actually watch this. And, you know, it sounds like, you know, there were, there were periods of time, you know, that, you know, your marriage, like I thought I'm thinking about like with your, with your, with your husband, what are some valuable suggestions that you could share with, for people who they may have a loved one or on one side or the other in this. What are some of the things of how you and your husband were able to, because I've met your husband and your son and we've been in on a game. Your son's actually brilliant. What are some valuable insight that maybe you could share of how y'all made it through this?

Her marriage and advice for families

1:07:24I'm really thankful my son never saw me drink that was that's a big thing but yeah I bring him here I'm very open and honest about the mental health and about the addiction you know the hardest thing the hardest I'll be at the desk answering the phone you know when people call up my brother really needs help or my son really needs help and the heartbreaking truth is that we cannot help them. You know, they have to want the help. Interventions sometimes don't work because they're not ready. Just like me. I went through Ridgeview in Atlanta and then, you know, uh, Marshall Pickens and that awful place. I won't say the name and all these, you know, and it took me ten years to like realized that this life wasn't working for me and I wanted something different. Um, my husband and I had to go to counseling. We did. Um, he now, I mean, now he brews beer, like it doesn't bother me at all. Um, it's in the house and I just, it's not worth it to me. I don't want it. Um, but yeah, he, I don't know why he stuck around cause I was pretty bad. But he is my rock. He was completely understanding and just wanted me to get better. He knew what was underneath that ugly addiction. And luckily he held out and stayed with me. And I'm very lucky for that. And we are all involved now. You think that's important? Yes.

Families and enabling

1:09:07And for families, you know, a lot of times you don't realize you're enabling. Oh, I just wanted to give him money because he didn't have food. Yeah, well, he's not going to get food, you know. And if they're not ready, then I highly recommend that the families talk to somebody and learn their role or not their role, you know, that they don't have one. to take care of themselves and kind of Not let that person consume them and take up all their lives And it is again. It's sad. You can't help the person until they want it and they have to hit that bottom And you see, you know, there's very few one-chip wonders and I think recovery a lot has to do with relapse. Um, for me, I didn't pick up a drink, but, um, I did smoke some pot, uh, and I did, you know, I was on my medications. Um, and also how you guys offer medically assisted treatment. That's huge. um but as far as the families you know i think they take care of themselves they learn

1:10:34what they can and can't do to help. And it's hard. It's really hard. I see it a lot. I have family members that, you know, you just want to grab them and shake them and be like, don't you see what you're doing to yourself? You know, snap out of it. But, they're not ready it's painful all i can do is is be you know a guide for them be there for them when they are ready and be understanding because i've been there too So you've been around this for quite some time, OG, and so I'm sure recovery's evolved.

Biggest challenges today

1:11:22So what are some of the biggest challenges that you find yourself dealing with today? Even when I go do my meetings, I'm still very nervous. Like, you know, and like coming here a lot, my insecurities kind of sink back in sometimes and I get to worrying, oh, what if, what if, what if, and I realize None of that is helpful to me. I can't go there. I have to bring myself back, be present, find 5 colors, feel 5 different things, bring myself back here instead of off in my head worrying about things. I've learned just to be true to myself. And, you know, the better off I am, the better off everybody around me is. So I take care of my health. I work out. Thanks to recovery, I got to finally do martial arts, which I always wanted to do all my life. And I got up to a blue belt, but unfortunately my

1:12:30since I died oh yeah it was really bad but I did I got you know I was like the old lady in with all the kids and but still kick butt so it was pretty cool I liked it but recovery's given me a chance to do all these things that I wanted to do um but just never did you know so it's given my life back i i've got this on my heart and i've got to say this because what you shared had such an impact um

An unexpected apology

1:13:12I think I want to publicly apologize to people that if I was in school with or when I was younger, if I ever said an unkind word or if I ever came across as a bully, I apologize. Because I just, I can't get the thought out of it sounded like you were you were happy there was an innocence and due to the cruelty of 2 young boys having such a significant impact on such a precious young little girl And I'm sorry that that happened to you. And it hit me in my stomach. I just felt such a wave of guilt because I'm not innocent of having done that. And it might have been trying to flirt or just being a stupid kid. And I have a responsibility to correct behavior. And I just wanted to say because I know that you're not alone in that. And I did not expect that today. And I'm sorry that that happened to you. So I have a, I guess kind of as we wind down a little bit,

A message for someone struggling

1:14:59There's going to be somebody that watches this who's struggling. Right? Maybe spent all their money. Maybe the only thing they have is a phone and social media or YouTube. Or maybe they're coming here and saw the thing and heard about it. Or there's just somebody out there in California that this pops up on. What do you have to say for people who might be struggling or thinking about recovery or scared to death of recovery because they got run out of an AA meeting from somebody saying something horrific or has lost hope because they've given up because they had a crappy therapist that got them all drugged up on the wrong drug? And I'm not trying to be critical what I'm trying to do. And the main purpose of what this is, is to let people know that recovery is possible. What would you share to that person that's out there that's struggling or on the fence or been burned and and really could use recovery? I hope they can realize

1:16:19Their priorities, you know. If it's drugs, if it's alcohol, you got a problem. There is hope. You know, like I said in that women's group, let us love you till you can love yourself, because a lot of times it's. shame and guilt and you know maybe that what this boy said hadn't hit if I wasn't in such a vulnerable state at that time but you know just talking with somebody reaching out for help asking for help man that's something I've learned is crucial I sat on the wallflower for years and absorbed a little but once I started asking questions once I started saying help what can I do people just all around it's amazing it really is that the community and how uplifting and supportive all these people can be in your life and you're not alone believe you me you know your story may be different but your your pain is the same you know the struggles the same and

1:17:47Give yourself a chance. You could start over. You can make a new life and live it the right way. We only have one, you know. Don't waste it away. Ask for help. Casey, thank you for spending time with us. Thanks for having me. It was nice talking with you. Love you.