Fifteen Years to Life, Then Nineteen Years Free

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Cold open

00:08boom boom boom boom they're coming to rob me cocaine was it magic boo I would never want another human being to know that happened first degree burglary fifteen years of life hundred thousand can't stop using no matter what I can't go on living like I'm living you ain't got no water you ain't got no soup and look at what god has done in my life Frank what's up buddy Nate Dog what's happening man man thank you for um for doing this with me um for for our audience uh Frank is one of my closest friends I consider you a brother I think probably as we go down this

01:05I think without you I probably wouldn't be alive and I'm truly grateful for our friendship and the relationship that we have um and I think it's a I think your recovery story is one that needs to be shared and uh and be heard it's one that I truly admire and try to emulate in many ways so without further ado in the spirit of the show do me a favor uh

Welcome and where he grew up

01:34tell me where you grew up where you're from how'd we get here alright um you know again I'm I'm I'm Frank and I grew up here in Charleston South Carolina I was born um to a single mother uh 16 year old single mother uh we lived with my grandparents for a time here in the West Ashley area and then uh we moved around a lot that's you know we we when my mother moved out of my grandparents house we moved from one spot to the next and um you know I like to say we lived in in the hood you know what I'm saying and um you know when when when people talk about having roaches at the house you know if you flip the lights on and the roaches run you ain't got roaches when when when you flip them on and they just stand there that's that's when you got them and we had them and um and it was just a you know

A stepfather at eight

02:21from one spot to the next um and then at about eight years old my mother met my stepfather who was firmly middle class had a good job and a house and um so we moved out of that into into the house with him did you ever know your real father never met the man never met the man and um you know it was my grandparents were like another parent to me anywhere I was at my grandfather would come pick me up take me to church different things like that and that was home base was my grandparents house let me ask you a question um because I've I've found in my own own recovery you know for a long time not knowing who my father was I was just like oh it's one of them things what impact do you think that had on you uh as a child not knowing your father or not having him present do you

Feeling different

03:12remember like feeling different or you know that was the good thing was my mother was such a great mother and my grandparents really picked up the slack to where as a child I never knew the difference never thought about it um you know there's a couple times my mother mentioned my father if I asked about it a situation and uh she thought he had the same disease that I have and um she she didn't want to get married she just said leave us alone we'll never come out we'll never come after you for child support and he didn't ever come after us and um so it was just not a big thing so your stepfather comes into the picture what was that relationship like well you know he's a good man he was he's always been a good man but he was a hard man um you know I find out later that his father um was was um

04:02very very hard on him his mother never told him that she loved him never the words I love you never came out of her mouth to him and um you know he was just a very stern man and um you know I was used to my mother that was kind of easy going no big deal and then I moved in with my stepdad and it's the complete opposite of that if I didn't clean my room he'd pull everything out of the drawers out of the closet pile it in the center of the room and so it was a total different experience I got to see anger for the first time and um you know what's funny is I picked right up on it I picked right up on that and um you know it it kind of fueled me my anger you know what I mean as I was growing up when you say it fueled your anger and like how in what way outside of the home yeah yeah like my stepdad was real big into amateur boxing uh

04:53he did a lot of things even with the Olympics and but he coached local boxing teams around town and so I was on a boxing team and so I Learned how to how to fight basically through boxing and I would get into fights at school you know starting as I got into boxing I'd start fighting at school and doing different things and um it was just um you know it was just one of those things where I always felt like I was on the outside looking in and so you know nobody's gonna mess with me you know is what my mindset was and um so I would um you know I would use that anger to fuel me man that's that's really the truth at what age did that start for you I'd say it was probably around 8 9 years old I had been picked on as a kid you know we would move from place to place and and so I would be in a new school

05:43you know you're the new kid you're kind of getting picked on and so that kind of that kind of I felt like you know the scared kid uh up until about 8 9 years old and that's when I started getting into boxing and and in in uh elementary school then I'm fighting in elementary school after class if somebody says something to me and things of that nature you know yeah so you start you kind of pick up on uh on that anger and it kind of manifests you know out and from that you know that zero to 7 we're just like absorbing and then

Anger as armor

06:16you know seven to about 15 it kind of comes into when we get into that social aspect so what didn't what was middle school like for you um middle school was again I was um you know I was a I was a good kid as far as classes I I I had it I I did um you know somehow I had managed to get into some advanced classes going into middle school so I was our class stayed together other classes switched but our class stayed together but I was the class clown I was the class bully and because these kids were a bunch of good kids and and I was I was you know not necessarily that and so for the most part it went okay um you know I really wasn't getting in a lot of trouble at school I would do stuff after school but not in school and um but you know I started

07:05hanging around with kids and and I like to say birds of a feather flock together and um you know I started a pattern of having best friends that later on in life would have the same problem the drug and alcohol problems and um

Stealing with his best friend

07:18so I I I had a best friend and and we started um stealing at that time that was when we would steal alcohol or we go to the um you know we go to the Magic Market steal bottles of Mad Dog you know one bottle in the front and one bottle in the back and walk out and uh then we would uh you know we go to the mall and we'd steal stuff out of the mall and we're just wilding out man you know the magic market that's over there by Northwoods Assembly yeah yeah man yeah used to hit that like crazy man that's right around the corner from my grandmother's old house yeah yeah so you know we've traveled in a lot of the uh the same circles it you know I I try to think back to that time in the area where we grew up it was just it was like a a different time like kids'cause the more that I yeah I get to spend with people the more I realize like

08:10we all kind of had that going on right we would put on this facade like of bullying'cause we're we don't wanna get hurt right and also I mean I you know and I don't know whether it's good good or bad I'm still kind of on the fence for this but you know trying to be the best you know that's something that you know I guess has has been a an asset in my life but it's also kind of LED to my downfall in many ways that perfectionism but during that time I guess we're considered to be Generation X it was a different time where like bullying was just a thing man like it was survival of the fittest right I mean that was a part of uh life I mean you know I got bullied at times you know you bullied other kids and it was just a part of the way that it was and you know it was really a generation where where the parents

08:58kind of were doing their thing and the kids did their thing and um you know after our generation it seemed like parents got more involved and and you know what kids were doing on their social life uh but but our generation it was just you know you know you're with your family for family time and then you you're away for social act stuff with your friends and uh you get in a lot of trouble doing that you know so don't come home till the lights come on right like we were just out there bro right you got the disease we got it's uh

High school and first drugs

09:29it happens so where did you go to high school I went to Stall High School um right in North Charleston and um you know it was the the ninth grade I was still trying to be a good student um you know to for the most part still trying to fly straight and um something happened from the ninth to the 10th grade and and I you know we talk about you know in the program that we need to have a personality change sufficient to bring about recovery right that that's what we're looking for a change of idea attitude emotions and I can tell you that there was a a personality shift from ninth to 10th grade with me um I went from really thinking about um you know you know college and different things of that nature to uh by the time I got into the 10th grade I was I was

10:20really wild and out at that point I was fighting a lot a lot at school I'd get kicked out of school um you know I was um I was just that's when I first started doing drugs smoking smoking weed we would go out and steal car stereos I used to have a kid that would he'd pull up uh uh at the at the cul de sac in front of my house and hit the lights and I had a rope tied around the the windows of my room and I would climb down that rope that I had in a suitcase underneath my bed and we go steal car stereos and then I climb back up you know and um so you know but one time he came and um this is this is when I was in the 11th grade one time he came and he's like hey let's go get some cocaine and so I was like you know that now this was something different you know my mother had always told me you know you know don't do drugs

11:10you know what I mean you know weed was one thing I had seen that you know drinking was another thing everybody did that but cocaine was something where my mother had a friend that had really got screwed up on it and she's like Frank don't ever do it and so I remember him saying that and there was a deep feeling inside me like don't do it but I couldn't say no you know and so we went out in a in an area in North Charleston called the Heights and we uh ran into somebody and and uh the guy said you got you got the money we said yeah so he put the money out the window and he snatched the money and ran off so that was my first experience trying to get cocaine yeah but uh the next time he came we we had a better idea where to look for it we found it and the first time I did it man you talk about feeling like I had arrived this was it son I meant you know drinking was good

11:59smoking weed was good but cocaine was it magic yeah and and from that point forward I tried to do as much as I possibly could you know I did a good job at it too yeah with with all of the fighting and stuff did you experience any like legal challenges or and how did your how did the the family inside the home respond to you getting in trouble at school and out in the neighborhood with this violence at school you know they were trying to just manage the best they could that you know they were um you know I I I got expelled like in middle school I had to come in I had to I had to like do some classes like after school had let out at for the year I had to do some classes um I was you know again getting in trouble in in um

12:48high school it got to a point though where by the time I was 16 my family knew that there was nothing that they could do about what I was doing and it was getting to the point where the the conflict between me and my stepdad was so strong to where it was it was either he was gonna go or I was gonna go and you know I was the one with the problem and so I ended up moving out of my my parents house and moving in with my grandparents that was at 16 that was at it was actually it was either 16 or 17 is when I moved in with my grandparents

Night school

13:20yeah now did you graduate high school I went to night school I I quit the 11th grade and went straight into night school so I actually graduated early um but you can't graduate officially until till your scheduled time so I I did graduate high school and but yeah and um then I did some classes at tech what not after that did you have a job or like what were you just hanging out what was going on but yeah yeah I mean I tried to get in construction but I was uh I was uh too high to do it man I'm gonna tell you I was I had nothing but left you know my mother when I went to play baseball gave me the left handed glove I'm right handed okay so like I didn't learn how to how to do construction or I had no kind of handiness to me yeah and so I would go out as a helper and I mean I bounced from one job to the next to the next to the next I just was no good at it man I'm gonna be honest with you

14:11man like I know you and like to see you like with like power tools or something like that's just that dangerous yeah it's just not your thing dangerous you know what I'm saying you're a man of many many talents and actually very very gifted but you and tools are not it no I'm not I'm not tool time guy no that's not it so I mean I guess you're just out there like figuring it out now were you mixed up with some some serious being that you're going to night school I guess your lifestyle is a little bit different what's your lifestyle like well I was working at a job my grandfather uh had gotten me with a crane and rigging uh which was a good job making decent money and um and I was I was hanging out with some of the people that I I knew at night school I'd run into this girl that I I knew her sister and and we were hanging out and um you know but I was kind of directionless man and so I um

15:02ended up thinking you know what i'mma join the National Guard I mean you know I I I they had commercials at the time hey join the National Guard get a job this that the other and I'm thinking man I don't have direction this is great I'll stay home and they'll teach me a skill and maybe I can go to work somewhere and so I called up and the one around here they um they did communications and they're like yeah when you leave here you can go work for at t or Southern Bell they still had that and um and I would find out when I joined my unit that um nobody worked at Southern Bell or at t in the entire unit it's 450 guys none of them worked at at t or Southern Bell so it was a kind of kind of recruiting employee there but the thing that happened was right before I was to go into basic training I had already been hanging out with a guy who was dealing coke right so he's dealing and I'm I'm driving

15:53he's dealing and we're getting hotel rooms partying down and um so so we're having a good time and and and so we were getting in the in the clubs one of them was a bar they used to call nightlife here in town okay and it was known for fighting it was kind of like if you ever seen that movie with Patrick Swayze where he's in the bar I can't roadhouse yeah Roadhouse where where the where the bouncers would beat you up and all kind of crazy stuff well I was getting into those places at the time and um and so right before I was good to go into basic training

A night at the bar

16:21I went with this girl to to the bar and um and got tore up I was gonna go to basic training the next week so I get slashed man and to the point where I passed out in the bar like on the table in the bar so the next thing I know I got a I got I'm being dragged by two guys and thrown out the bar and um so the girl who drove me is still inside and so I try to just like lean in to like say hey to get her attention to say hey let's go and um five or six guys from the bar come straight at me now I know I know what's about to happen they're about to beat beat the heck out of me and um so I had a pocket knife in my pants and the first one that stepped up I hit him with a pocket knife right in the chest and ran across the street

17:09threw the knife in the in the in the graveyard across the street and the next thing I know the police were there and I go to jail I vaguely remember going I was so drunk and but I wake up the next morning and and people are going and getting bonds and you know somebody goes in and gets a three thousand dollar bond they got 300 dollars to get out

Facing a $100,000 bond

17:27and they're going on and and I go before the judge and he says 100,000 Bam now my parents are out of town they're at a football game they they travel to to to a local college football teams so games so they're out of town um and and I know I'm in a bunch of trouble at that moment and um so I end up sitting in jail for for about 30 45 days and um during that time they get the bond lowered they end up speaking to the guy who I who I stabbed and and because I was underage uh because because they were coming at me and this guy had criminal charges for history uh they ended up paying him off and I ended up walking on the charges so it was assault with intent to kill and I end up walking on the charges that's stressful ain't it

18:17yeah now well you would think that that would that would wake you up you would say hey man maybe I need to get my life going back in the right right right mode there but the truth of the matter is is I felt like you know what my slate's clean I'm all good now the funny thing is is I had a friend a girl that I knew whose brother was in Louisiana who got in a bar fight would a guy pulled out a knife cut him in the leg and it cut a main artery and the guy bled to death that that guy did 30 years I stabbed a guy in the chest now I should be the luckiest man on earth to walk from that and yet I'm feeling like man I'm I'm I'm golden I don't have my records clean you know so he shouldn't have messed with me that's it that's it yeah like the delusional thinking like we just can't see it when we're in it right right right well so you you were

19:03signed up for the National Guard so were you actually in the National Guard or was that a lost opportunity no no no once the charges got dropped I um was able to um to go to basic training which I went to extremely messed up I mean I had done coke all the night before I thought I was gonna get kicked out going in cause I literally got cooked up the whole night before I went in and I thought if they test me as soon as I walk through the door I'm done and luckily they waited like 30 days they must know that yeah guys are coming in that way they waited 30 days to test us and uh but went through basic and I can tell you that was a an experience that was a that was an experience that the the the couple months that I was in there really disciplined you and you know so so when you talk about working on the mind and the body that's what the military is great at doing they work on your mind

19:52they work on your body and I remember walking out of out of basic training with the thought man I I don't want to get in trouble man anymore the rest of my life I mean if I got in a DUI I I don't know what I'd do man you know I'm not I'm not gonna get in any more trouble anymore and um so it it it kind of straight me out mentally um but you know because it was not a spiritual change a real personality change it was only a few months later when when I started back in the old routine so let me ask you this cause you mentioned the word spirituality right and you know we're gonna get into all of that much later but at that point in time had you know

Church and a prayer as a child

20:30were you raised with like spirituality or church or anything like that I I did grow up going to church my grandfather ever you know I was born into a church yeah um my grandfather would pick me up whenever he could from wherever me and my mother lived even when I was with my parents I would go to vacation Bible school down the street and there was a van that would come pick me up I'd had friends that would go to church but like most kids that were like like us who went to church once I was old enough really to have other things to do and and you know 13 14 years old then then the church stopped and it would be you know three times a year Christmas Mother's Day Easter you know what I'm saying every blue moon you know what do you think your relationship was like with god was it just like an out of sight out of mind

21:18thing or I I tell you man if you know to really go deep into it um I remember as a little boy being at a at a vacation Bible school and I probably was probably about 8 or 9 at that time and I remember them saying talking about giving your heart to the Lord to Jesus Christ and I remember praying with everything inside me for him to come into my heart and I look back on my life and I realized my mother was a single mother at 16 years of age she could have aborted me no doubt my mother was a godly woman um you know so god was looking out for me even in the womb I look at it as a child all the situations where I was left alone my mother being a single mother going to work there's a million bad things that could have happened to me it that that didn't um certainly I brought bad things on myself but I can't ever say that god did

22:07and so I can see how God's hand was in my life all the way up to me getting stopped and and getting sober yeah so you're in in the National Guard right you got some clarity with your mind but I guess uh you know it didn't it didn't take long did it no no it was a few would y'all go out and celebrate and then it was on no no no I came home and did the right thing for a couple months

Back to the bars

22:31and then um then I ran into a guy that I used to box with and uh Joey it was his name and uh me and Joey hooked up and we just started um going out and so it started going back to the bars back back to to the cocaine and and partying is is essentially what it became you know and um so I was in the National Guard you only do that part time and um so I got a job in a restaurant business I I started out as a um dishwasher moved up to busboy and then got to where I wanted to be which was waiter where you work you know 20 30 hours a week and you make more money yeah and um you know and that's what I was doing man just just working so you're making some cash are you still at your grandparents I am I am are you happy uh I look back and I realized that no I wasn't truly happy

23:21you know I I wasn't truly happy um you know there were happy times you know where we'd have a good time we'd go party go to Myrtle Beach do this that the other and and there were happy times but as far as true happiness no not at all and um so I I I I I kept bouncing from restaurant jobs to restaurant jobs and I eventually got a job at a Japanese steakhouse here in town and um and by this time I'm in my 20s I'm in my I'm in my early 20s and um you know this place was I could make a arm arm and a leg I mean I had found a way to scam the restaurant out of a bunch of money like you know and so I had I had money from the restaurant I had uh the dealer coming to the bar I had the bartender that I was selling stuff to dealing him giving him free drinks

24:11he's giving me the package I'm delivering the package out to everybody in the restaurant then I got a whole bunch for me for free and I remember leaving that restaurant and I here I am I'm I'm probably 22 23 years old I'm tanned I got a pink polo shirt on I've already my license has been suspended already so I'm driving with the hostess she's got her car and we're riding and I've got an eight ball of cocaine I've got I got probably you know six seven hundred dollars on me an ounce of weed and I'm thinking man life can't get any better than this this is I have arrived man this is it you know why did you lose your license though uh I was I was uh originally I lost it because I had a fake ID I had gotten a license I would with my friend's stuff

24:58and back in those days you could do that you just walked in with his info and got a license with my picture on it with his info on it and uh I got caught with that so it got suspended and then I was driving again and I had some um there was there was there was some type of driving offense that they suspended it even longer I don't even remember exactly something nobody cares man life is good yeah I'm driving her car and I'm I'm stacked bro I got everything I need right yeah yeah and so I would imagine that is downhill from there yeah I mean you know when I look back

A daughter at 16

25:31even that event there you know at that time my I had a daughter at 16 and just like my mother had a daughter I had a had me at 16 I had a daughter at 16 and I uh here I am um you know working at this restaurant that I don't have to be there till 4:00 and my daughter would come and my grandparents are there and they're watching her and and and all and and here it is she would come into the room you know at at you know noon and you know not even early in the morning at noon and and and pull on my on on the blankets say hey daddy come on let's go outside and play and I'd be like please please let me sleep cause I partied all night and you know I'm coming home two three four o'clock in the morning and I'm so tired from that that I can't even get up but an hour before going to work and so my daughter's there and I'm never even spending any time with her when you look back to that what

26:20what impact do you think that had on her oh it's tremendous I I I uh you know I don't know that I I can say that I I necessarily regret anything in my life other than the way that I treated my kids man that they felt the brunt of a father you know I was lucky enough not to have a father uh in comparison to having a father that was being the type of father that I was that's the way I feel about it and so uh it hurts it hurts and um you know you can't ever go back in time you can just try to do your best moving forward and you know and part of for me is is helping it helping young guys young fathers stay sober or get sober stay sober and uh so that they don't treat their kids the way I did

27:08so you said that you had your daughter at 16 right so do you think that that may have had something to do with the whole high school and like not going to high school because life had to like you had to focus on taking care of a child I wish I could say it was cause I was that responsible I don't even pretend like it was I was so off the chain at that point I think either with my daughter or without my daughter I was on the way out of school

Becoming a father young

27:37when you found out that your I guess she was your girlfriend or or whatever what how did that affect you like when you hear like oh I'm having a kid at 16 you know you you you at first you you you can't believe it and then uh but I always said that I was gonna my kids were gonna know know me see I didn't know my father so so when you say did it ever have an impact the one thing I I would say is going into this I was you know to having my daughter the one thing I I said was my daughter's gonna know me not like I didn't know my father but I my daughter's gonna know me and um you know the sad part is is that at times that was all it was was knowing me you know I was there by name but not by not by presence how long were you involved with the mother uh about a year

28:24yeah about a year 16 to 17 yeah real big first love was was was her yeah what what happened in that you just she wanted to get away I was partying I was leaving her she was not pregnant and I was out partying every night and I remember probably the final straw was when she came to a to a house we were partying at and tried to get me out of the house and I just I just wouldn't even leave and um I think she had had enough and um rightly so and so she moved on and you know in my mind she left me abandoned me can't how could she do that but the truth was I I drove her away yeah I can't believe you just gonna sit at the house and not wait on me yeah yeah I thought you know hey whenever I get done with her then I come home right right right exactly

29:10you know it was insane man out of control just utterly out of control so you're at the the Japanese Steakhouse which yeah 4:00 they're not even opening you're coming in you're banging out massive amounts of cash just off the tables and you got the side hustle going on where do we go from there well um you know eventually it gets to the point where um they can't pinpoint it but they know when I'm working money gets missing and this is about three years in so I've I've lived off of this in in a in you know in a in a in a addict Utopia almost like you know I'm working 20 30 hours a week I'm making plenty of money partying every night

Losing the restaurant job

29:49and you know I'm living like this for three years and finally a new manager comes in who who who cannot figure out what's happening but they they realize when I'm there money's going and so they finally cut me loose after three years and so I'm at a I'm at a point where I'm like you know I don't know exactly what to do I mean I'm expensive okay now I'm not talking about bills I'm not I'm not saying bills I'm saying I'm expensive like like me so how I need to find a job where I can pay my bills plus afford me and I'm I'm already got a big time habit going on at this point and um so I had some friends in the car business and they're like hey man you need to come out here and work with us and I'd seen them getting big two three thousand dollar checks and I was like you know what this this is for me I'm I'm jumping in and when you say you're expensive snapshot before you get into the car business what does that mean like realistically

30:40what about 500 dollar day habit 300 or something like that I mean I couldn't tell you I was probably spending you know a thousand dollars a week and you know every dollar that was not going to drugs and alcohol but but probably 85 to 90% was and this is 90s this is 90s yeah money money went a lot further that's right that's right that's right and so you uh you see these guys uh making money in the car business that's right so where do you where do you where do we go right you like alright i'mma do it yeah so I went to a dealership in Summerville South Carolina and it was the Wild West um you know that place everybody that worked there either had the problem or was supplying the problem if you understand what I mean

31:30and so it was the wild wild west I mean we had it was so crazy to where you could uh you could use drugs in the parts department bathroom you just couldn't use them in the in the showroom bathroom you know and

The car dealerships

31:44and I remember there was two guys that that were smoking crack in the in the in the showroom bathroom bathroom they were going in and out nobody could get in customers couldn't get in these guys were back and forth and and the boss goes in there and he comes out with a smoking can from behind the toilet and uh so so the no go was in the in the showroom but but on a Friday and I'm not kidding you there'd be a line of 10 guys waiting to get into the parts department bathroom to do whatever drugs that they had it could be you know anything and and they're waiting to get in there and and when the lights when when it got dark then the bottles got popped then you you know you got your vodka or whatever guys are drinking it was just no problem to do that and was business good you talk about a busy dealership bro that was the busiest in the world I promise you they that car that car dealership was probably selling more Chevys than any any dealership in the state

32:33because you had a bunch of addicts that wanted to make a bunch of money and so yeah it was uh it was it was business was good for me though the funny thing is for me when I get high I don't want to talk to people I don't I don't want to sell customers and so you know I'm I'm a guy who's sober is I'm a I'm a pretty good salesman but uh hi I don't want to talk to customers so you know that's started a pattern which is that I would be getting messed up leave the dealership and go missing and you know and and and you know you do that so many times and and people let you go yeah and and so what happened is I ended up bouncing around from dealership to dealership to dealership like I worked at probably half the dealerships in town at one time or another and um you know I'd get in I'd

33:23start out well and then I'd start getting high and drunk and and I've had I've had managers tell me Frank you know you you you can sell cars you're you're great but you cannot miss another day man if you do we gotta let you go dude you cannot miss another day and I'd be like I swear to you man I'll be here and then the guys would say hey man we're going to the bar to have a couple beers and I'd be like I'm just gonna go have a couple beers and then it'd be one o'clock at night and I'd be like in the morning and I'd be like you know what I'll I'll stop here in just a few minutes then it'd be three then it'd be five then it'd be seven then it'd be nine then it'd be 12 and I'd be like I ain't going in and that that happened again and again and again and again so it sounds like you're a pretty good car salesman though yeah yeah I could sell some cars yeah yeah I mean there's no we'll we'll get into it I I'm I'm I will tell you you are the best salesman that I've ever

34:13I personally witnessed in my life and we'll probably talk about that a little bit later but so were you still living at grandma's house or in your grandfather's house or what like what's going on yeah yeah I actually I had I was living in my grandparents'house and um I had gotten in some trouble earlier I in earlier in life I had in my early 20s I had gotten caught with a gun and and so I caught some gun charges which was a violent felony I had to plead on that and so I had gun charges and some other stuff and so that had happened and so I'm that was

A title clerk and a bad decision

34:48so I'm going through I'm working in the car business and I meet this girl who's a title clerk and uh at a at a Dodge store and um me and her get together she's married at the time and um she just uh you know you know fell in love with me so to speak and we're getting we're getting high together we're you know we're getting cooked up we're partying and um she ends up leaving her husband she had just gotten married and probably you know six months before big old wedding you know parents spent a fortune on it and um she's leaving her fam leaving her husband to come to be with me you know what I mean and I'm living at my grandparents house right so she's got a house with her husband I'm living at my grandparents house and so her family is is um you know you know not you know doesn't like me from the start

35:37and then because she's going so crazy they're like what is your problem what's wrong so she says well I'm on drugs so now they really hate me you know and so things get really bad between us and they're wanting to split us up which you know I was kind of okay with I wasn't really in love with her that much but um she wanted to be with me to the utmost and so I was working at this Dodge store and she went and took a check from her grandparents her grandparents were pretty wealthy she took a check for like five grand at the time that was a good chunk of dough and I came to the dealership and said hey let's go to Atlanta my my family wants us to split up let's go to Atlanta so I said let's go so I jumped in the car and we headed to Atlanta and you know I had some friends that were living there at the time and so we got into an in town suites

36:25and she was all about wanting to get an apartment get a thing going I'm about wanting to spend that $5,000 party and have a good time and so there was a lot of fighting going on between us during that time and we come back to the house and um and uh and and and I get my stuff and I move back out uh back in with my grandparents and I guess her grandfather had a

Kidnapping charges

36:50they she didn't tell him where she was going she took the money didn't tell her family where she was going so her grandfather was really good friends with North Charleston Police Department and so he uh basically said that I kidnapped her that I that that that you know got her to steal the money and and a couple other things and so and then and then talked her into going down and signing the paper on it and so I went to work at another car lot and I'm at a Nissan store and all of a sudden the cops walk in and say we got a warrant for your arrest and now I'm sitting in jail oh looking at assault with intent to kill kidnapping and burglary was the charges at that time and um it was crazy it was insane and um so of course I'm trying to mend fences with her while I'm sitting in jail and um and so I'm I'm calling and she's telling me she still loves me and wants to get

37:39get back together and so I I I get her to get you know I get an attorney get her to recant everything she said and the charges get dropped and she comes in and moves in with me at my grandparents house um now she uh eventually talks me into moving into my first apartment so we we we leave there and go into the first apartment that I've ever had I signed with my name but everything in this apartment is hers how old are you I'm probably 20 uh 26 26 selling cars you finally get on your own for the first time I'm sure your grandparents were probably proud of you and happy yeah they were hoping for the best hahaha so were things good at this point in time or they were you know it was it was a time where I was trying to do the right thing I had gotten out of the car business and my stepbrother owned a a buying club where you could

38:34buy a membership and get things at discounted prices big time discounted prices factory prices essentially is what it was and so I was working there with him I had I I had become a sales manager there and um so things were good the problem was I would I was trying to do the right thing to the the best of my ability I was still drinking smoking weed but I was trying to stay off the coke because she'd already told me that you know you got a big time problem

A study at MUSC

38:58you know I'd already for the first time went to try to get help from a study at m U s C I know you have you ever seen those ads where they got the studies come and will you know if you got a cocaine problem and so I went down there and you know I remember sitting in front of the girl and she's like how much how much drugs and alcohol do you do in a week's time and I was like well you know and I'm not telling her the full story but I'm like maybe Monday Wednesday Friday Saturday and you know and how many of those days do you do cocaine well Monday Wednesday Friday Saturday and you know do you drink every day yeah you know I drink those days I smoke weed every day and I remember her looking at me and saying man and I'm 26 years old and she looked me dead in the eye and she said man it's so hard for people like you to stop and I thought man what what what what's wrong with this

39:45why would she say that to me like I was offended that she would say that to me you know then I went to speak to another guy there was another guy there who was in the program and working there and you know I'm talking to him I said you know the real reason I've come here to do the studies cause I wanna stop he says well have you ever stopped before I said no he says what makes you think you're gonna stop now I was like oh man I don't yeah I don't know so there was no help on offer they were just wanting to study your problem well kinda yeah yeah kinda but they you know this guy told me about an outpatient that they had at at um at um it was a what's the place called that did detox now Charleston Center yeah it was downtown at the time and he told me about an outpatient thing that they had there and so I went and signed up for the outpatient while I was doing that

40:34and the problem is is every three weeks I was coming in and telling them that I got I smoke crack again oh so we're doing we're on the crack now yeah I was yeah I I when did you do you remember cause I you know as a you know cocaine's one thing but crack cocaine for me is a whole other monster do you remember where that transition came in

The first time he smoked crack

40:59well the first time I smoke crack I was um 17 years old I was on a construction job and a guy that I was hanging out with um wanted me to take him to this neighborhood akabee in in in Charleston and not a good spot and um we go there and at the time he bought these things that were were in tin foil like they were individually wrapped in tin foil I had never I had no idea what he bought uh we go back to his place he's got a a wife or girlfriend there and um they got kids and we go into their bedroom and he pulls out this this pipe made of a plastic can and um and they put the rock on top and we hit it and I mean I tell you what that cocaine felt good but boy that crack really felt good man I mean I you know but so I had already been doing it and

41:46and so when I say cocaine from from that point forward it's interchangeable to me it really I like preferred cocaine because I could operate better on it but I did plenty of crack as well so but now you is it when you're in the study are you doing predominantly crack yeah yeah I would uh you know either one I mean it would be crack or or cocaine just depends on who I was hanging out with at the time so you're doing the IOP you're it seems like you're really trying to make a run at having a normal life right you're working at the the family business at this uh buying club right I guess you're doing okay things working yeah I mean I would I would go to work and I would go like I said three weeks I was I'm going to work I'm a sales manager I'm going to work and then and then what I would do is go missing for a few days

42:34like like you know so the girlfriend's there and then then I go missing you know and so this goes on endlessly with me coming in and you know going to work for three weeks go missing and and and to the point where she gets to the point where she's telling me if you do this again i'mma leave you and I believe her I'm at a point where I'm like I believe she's gonna do it and so I remember um this one week I I went to work on Monday

A good week and a sudden thought

42:58no thought of drinking or using go to work all week long till Friday get my paycheck still no thought of using or drinking go get my daughter okay I get my daughter who's at this time is 12 years old bring her back to the house and she's cooked a wonderful meal that night steak mushrooms I mean asparagus I mean we're eating like kings and then the next day we get up go to the mall go buy clothes for everybody we go to Frankie's Fun Park which is a little little amusement park we got around here that that that we ride you know the cars the go karts and all have a good time uh we went to eat had a great meal at the Japanese steakhouse same one that I used to work at I go I knew everybody there so we go there and eat and then Sunday we get up in the morning and I'm feeling so good about things we all go to church right and so really all I you know we come back to the house and now it's about 3 4 o'clock

43:50now all I've got to do is drive about five miles down the road is where our mother lives so all I've got to do is drive five miles down the road drop my daughter off and come back home and I'm great and so I leave no thought of drinking or using go all the way to the house drop her off walk her to the door no thought of drinking or using I sit down in my car and right before I go to crank the car suddenly the thought crosses my mind you can just go watch the game with the guys now I know deep down I know the guy I've been buying cocaine from all these years he's gonna be there but I'm not gonna do it I'm just gonna go watch the game with the guys and don't I deserve it I've been good all week and so I drive over there and there's a group of guys they're sitting in a circle watching football and they're drinking and I'm like nah I'm I'm all good man I'm all good I ain't drinking I'm just gonna watch a little football

44:39then I'm going home and out of the blue the guy pulls out the sack and he starts passing around and everybody's taking a little bump and it comes to me and I'm like ah nah little time goes by he pulls out the sack again goes around uh no pass it around again does it one more time and suddenly the thought crosses my mind I can just do a bump

The relapse

45:03now I know that the girl I live with she can look me in the eye and instantly know if I've been high I mean she knows me so well if I've done one bump she's gonna know but I will lie i'mma lie to the end and say I swear I didn't do it just do a bump so I do that bump next thing I know it's 3 4 o'clock in the morning and those guys are like hey man we we closing up shop and I'm like hey man can I get an eight ball on the face and so I get home three four days later and it used to be when I would get home and I'd be going on a run all my stuff would be piled up on on the front steps of the apartment when I get there there's nothing on the front steps so I'm like man this is this is this is good and so I open up the door to that apartment and I look inside and everything in that apartment is gone furniture uh plates spoons knives

45:56uh uh you know uh bedroom sets I mean everything the only thing left in that apartment is the clothes rack with my clothes on there because that was the only thing that was mine everything else in that apartment was hers and her family has come over and moved her out while I've been partying that time and um you know you you you sit there and you say to yourself man how could why did you do this you knew that she was gonna do this why why did you do this and you got no answer for it you know not a one no answer so what happened so from that I um I you know I I was it was full bore now she's gone um so I'm just partying like a like a rock star you know in my mind um you know I'm getting high I mean it it it already is a massive

46:46problem at this point and and I'm already trying to moderate my using um you know I remember getting um I would um I had I didn't have a debit card because I knew if I did I would blow every dollar I had there would be no way I could not once I'm on a run so what I would do to circumvent not having a debit card is I would go to the local grocery store and I would write checks and I would cut them back the the manager money like if I got a 500 dollar check I'd give her you know 75 dollars to cash it and so she cash any check I had first thing in the morning the problem is at night so what I would do is I'd go back to the place I was working for my stepbrother and I would open up the door in the middle of the night I'd go in there and then in his office he kept the deposit money and I would pop the door open get deposit money and I would party on that money in the morning I'd get a cut a check to Piggly Wiggly and then I'd run to the

47:37to the place before he got there and replace the deposit money and I remember one time I um he got there before me and so he's uh so he's he walks out the door he walks out his office he's like man somebody stole some deposit money and and I'm like man who who do you think would do that he's like I don't know I was like dude he's like do you know who do it I was like nah I don't man I don't know who would do that and I mean you know it's it's

Stealing from his workplace

48:06did he know it was you or you know I don't think he thought it was me I don't think he thought it was me I don't think no man we need to figure this out right that's right you helping them look for the money ain't you like that's right man we gotta figure where you cause you're the sales manager right it's like man we gotta i'mma keep my eye on one of these guys man right right we on red alert right right you're the one that did it now this is my stepbrother you know yeah his business and during that time I met a girl who was a a young girl who was a a receptionist and we got together and in very short time she was pregnant and she was having my next child so here I have one child with with mother I'm having another child with another mother this mother is she's 18 I'm 27 at the time and um I got another baby on the way and um you know and I'm nowhere near

48:58ready to be a another father you know what I mean I'm not not anywhere near being sober or or really getting anywhere and um now we're at your job did they know that you were having problems with with drugs and cocaine and alcohol or were you able to kind of keep it under wrap yeah most days we didn't have to be in until like 12 1:00 and um so I I you know I could I could manage to go there there were times on Saturdays we had to be there at 8 o'clock in the morning and there were times when I literally am and doing the last bit of blow and and I'm walking in the door and um so I mean I'm sure they knew I partied but to the extent that I did no I don't think they knew yeah yeah so were you able to keep the apartment or well what ends up happening is um me and this girl we get together and I am

49:48I am self will run riot with her man it's uh you know I would find excuses to argue with her so that she would want to leave you know cause at this time she's moved in we're about to have the baby so she's trying to move in with me but I'm arguing with her left and right um and then we get the news that my daughter's got a um a cord wrap partially around her neck and they're afraid that she's not getting the nutrition

A baby born at 2 pounds 1 ounce

50:09she needs and they they want to have the baby early and um you know a lot of fear went into that and and my daughter was born 2 pounds one ounce and so she moved back in with me my my girlfriend at the time moved back in with me and we were gonna raise our daughter and um but there was just no way that was gonna work it it didn't even last I think two months and she moved back in with her family and um you know I just was was I wanted to party she wanted to have a family and it was just incompatible and so she does that she moves in with her family and again I'm wilding out and it's not long before I've I've spent up all the money and can't afford the apartment and now I'm back at my grandfather's house you know and so I get back there and I'm I'm I'm I've lost the job with my stepbrother

50:58I've I've lost that job so now I'm working in the car business back again um my drug problem is is is pretty severe I'm you know 27 28 years old at this time and I'm I'm just off the chain

Living in his grandfather's house

51:10I'm living in my grandfather's house my grandmother has died so he's actually moved in with his his new wife in Hanahan and I'm living there by myself and my grandfather would have given me the property he'd let me have it all I needed to do was pay the bills and just take care of the place but I'm I'm not doing any of that as a matter of fact he's coming back to check on the place and stuff is missing like he had coins he had you know stash somewhere and and those coins are gone I've spent those in the middle of the night buying stuff in the middle of the night and um and so I'm I'm just doing horrible and um I remember going to a um going to a Piggly Wiggly and stealing tuna fish with a suit on because I knew in my heart that they wouldn't think that a guy would a suit on would be stealing tuna fish yeah and so I'm really at a low point at that point and I've got no idea what I'm gonna do

51:59and my stepbrother heard kind of how I was doing and he called a guy in um in Colombia who owned a the same business as him and somehow talked him into hiring me as a sales manager there

Moving to Columbia

52:13and so here I am flat on my back nowhere to turn and now I'm getting a job as a sales manager again in Columbia and this guy's gonna pay all my deposits to get in for an apartment for for you know light Bill phone Bill everything he's paying it all and all I gotta do is move up there and you know nobody was happier than my family they were so happy to get rid of me they were so happy to see me go to Columbia man that's great Frank get up there you're gonna do great right right right so I go to Columbia and um and you know the goose hung high for a little bit you know I didn't really know anybody there I you know I you know you know when you go to a bar and you have two beers and you ask the bartender you never met hey you know where to get cocaine they they think you're police so it took me a minute to get a connect there and so I was traveling back to Charleston back and forth and um I remember running into a guy um

53:04that I knew from the National Guard he was a really good guy we would bump into each other he ate 10 Cent wings is what they had back in the day so he would go out on Thursdays and I'd run into him at this bar and so it was a Thursday I think and I run into him I'd come down to for the week or whatever to to party and um I run into him and I remember him saying man I I hadn't seen you in a long time Frank where did you go I said I I moved to Columbia he said why did you move there I said man Charleston's messed up man he's like why I was like cause of this cause of that cause of this and he looked me dead in the eye he said oh you mean for you see Charleston's a great place I mean people come from all over the world to come to Charleston South Carolina right but for me it was bad and the problem was when I went to Columbia I brought me there and Columbia ended up getting bad too but at this time I'm I'm I'm coming back to Charleston to party

53:51and and so I'd be coming back a lot of times on a Friday staying with my parents and so my my daughter's gonna come on Saturday so I get there Friday my daughter's coming on Saturday and I put my clothes in my mom's house and I tell my mom hey mom I'm just gonna go out and drink a couple beers and my mom will say Frank please don't do it please don't do it I'd be like what what are you talking about I'm just gonna drink a couple beers I'll be back and and of course I go out drink a couple beers

Back to cocaine

54:15next thing you know I'm buying a sack of cocaine next thing you know it's Monday my daughter was there Sunday Saturday Sunday I didn't even see her and it wasn't but a few more times of that when my family was like you can't come down here no more and I was so resentful at them for telling me that how could they do me like that you know and um so so now I'm in Colombia and now I'm I'm I found my people in Colombia I've I've found the the spots that ain't so good I found the dealer I found the crack dealer and um I'm off the chain because there's no family there now and um pretty soon I I start start getting so crazy at work that this guy's finally finally says man I gotta let you go so now I'm here in Columbia and I'm like I I got nowhere to go I mean I I you know I know my family don't want me back what am I gonna do and um I reached out for the first time I reached out and called the na

55:08so I called the na hotline and a guy answered the phone and and said hey you know there's a meeting right around the corner from you as a matter of fact I'll meet you there

Calling NA and meeting Bob

55:18and I met this guy and this guy's name was Bob and Bob was involved in na as good as any man could be he he'd work the steps he sponsored guys he did H and I did it all and um you know he took me under his wing and and you know and and I asked him to sponsor me and and I had been to a meeting or two prior to that but but you know I thought these people got nothing in common with me man they don't understand me this time around I kind of decided OK I'm gonna get a sponsor I asked Bob to sponsor me I um you know when I got a phone list I actually called some people off the phone list I started doing h and I and doing some of these other things but the one thing I didn't do was uh work the steps and matter of fact that you know in a day I got that big old thick workbook right and so he you know he got me to do step one and then he's like okay time for step two let's go do on that that and I'm like man I ain't doing I mean

56:06I'm not there's no way and I stayed sober the longest I ever had outside of of now which was a hundred and ten days

110 days and a phone call

56:15somehow some way I managed to get a hundred and ten days and on that hundred and tenth day I had been messing with this chick from a strip club that I had met and um she knew where to get Coke and had asked me before did I know and I was like no I don't do it but this time around I called her and said hey can you still get some cocaine and she said yeah meet me at the bar I met her and waited for the Coke to get there before I took a drink cause I didn't want to relapse on a drink I wanted to make sure the coke was in the house hahaha and and I went back at it and I can tell you that um it went out of control in a big big way I had um when I left that buying club that I was at the guy that had hired me to get up there I went and worked at a car lot which I did pretty good but I was blowing all the money and um during that time a guy who used to work at the buying club I had met

57:04um kept asking me to go to work with him in in a in a construction business and um actually selling windows and um and so I actually finally went with him one day and said hey okay I'll do it and and and

Strip clubs and easy money

57:18that job was a job where I could again work 20 30 hours a week and make several thousand a week you know two three four grand in a week and so I'm doing that and again now I feel like I've arrived again I'm going to the strip clubs I'm I'm there so often I had a girl ask me hey how often do you come here and I said Babe I'm like a piece of furniture pretty soon you ain't gonna know I'm here anymore okay I'm I'm here all the time okay that's your office right right and so I'm there all the time and so I'm I'm big balling in the strip clubs hanging out with all the girls I'm partying down with all the girls and and you know life again at this point you know there's no family to hold me back life at this point seems like it can't get any better but like all things it starts turning on me and now I can't make the money fast enough to keep up with my habit and and so I'm

58:07I'm now I'm dead broke and and I'm starting to try to get advances from the guy you know to just keep me going because I can't I can't keep up with my habit at this point you know and

Getting honest at a newcomer meeting

58:18um I I start going into AA I start hitting some AA meetings and and I go in one day and I run I I sit down and um it's a newcomer meeting and the and we go around and the guy says hey what's your name and I tell him and he's like what would you like to share and I for the first time I got honest I said man I don't know what's wrong with me but I'm probably gonna get high when I leave here tonight and the guy said come see me after the meeting and I did and the guy said hey let me let me let me ask you do you know that reading how it works and I said yeah yeah that they he said yeah everybody gets up drinks coffee he said Frank that's the program that how it works that's the program of recovery the meetings you're coming to that's the fellowship and that's good but that's not the program the program is that is that how it works okay and I know a place you can go and if you call me tomorrow I will get it set up and you can go there and they will teach you how to work those 12 steps

59:08and I said man I'm I will I'll call you tomorrow I promise and so two weeks later I picked up the phone I said hey is that offer still good he's like yeah yeah it's good and uh

First rehab in Sumter

59:20and I I I went to my first rehab this was a place called any link in Sumter South Carolina shout out any link Dennis Wormsley absolutely absolutely and and so I I I go down there and the mistake I made was I felt like I took myself there see I was driving my BMW my my 20 year old BMW that I had you know I have an apartment still you know what I mean I'm leaving my apartment you know I got money to get in now really I borrowed the money from the guy I was working for but I got money to get in you know all these people gotta be here I'm here cause I wanna be here you know Pope pimping oh yeah and so I'm washing the car every week you know and all and um but I did go in and really make an effort and and what I'll say is I I I got in and and you know I went to all the meetings I I did the even the extra late night meeting where they read the big book a guy named Bill Ellis

1:00:08shout out to him god rest his soul he would read that big book and break it down and and you know but I remember when he got into that chapter we agnostics I thought man that ain't me man I mean God's like this man I went to church my whole life man I don't me and God's close and so I I didn't even pay attention to that you know and but I'm doing that I'm I'm I'm doing I'm listening to Bill Wilson speaker CDs when I'm going to bed him and Mark Houston a guy named Mark Houston from Dallas Texas I'm listening to him talk about ten eleven and twelve and I'm listening to Bill Wilson talk about Rollin Hazard and Abby Thatcher and I'm going there and I'm doing meditations I'm like hmm I remember being with this with this old this guy he's from the country man he's a hillbilly man he's like yeah man just imagine what we're sitting in there smoke coming from the cross and you're breathing it in and he had these bells

1:00:56playing ding ding ding ding ding ding and I'm like yeah man and so I'm meditating I'm doing all these things and and and Dennis as a matter of fact is my sponsor and he's like okay you need to you need to you need to do these steps and and I'm like okay and he he gets me on the resentments and he's like I want you to write everybody you're resentful at so I got like a 60 names on there right he's like I want you to put why you resent I'm like no problem no no problem then he's like okay now I want you to put where you've been selfish dishonest self seeking fright and where you're to blame and I'm like man I really don't resent these people man I I I honestly I don't really resent these people man I'm just gonna tell you I I I just put them down cause you said it but you know and and I never did that fourth column and you know a big thing they have there is when you were there is you know they want you to work a five dollar an hour job at the time that was minimum wage they didn't want you to have a big money

1:01:47job well I had convinced them because I had child support to to get the guy I was selling windows with to come down to to Sumter from Columbia and we're selling windows and rehab and I am big balling in there I'm walking around rehab with 2 3 grand on me at any given time I done bought out the mall and I remember uh Dennis coming up to me and saying Frank you need you need to get a five dollar an hour job you need to get every time he'd see me he'd say that and I finally looked at him I said let me ask you this Dennis how do people in Hollywood get sober and he said you ain't in Hollywood and you'll never get sober to your dead broke and I said man F you Dennis but in my heart I knew it was right and it wasn't shortly after that

Leaving rehab and two years in dive motels

1:02:25that I kicked the door in the office with them talking to a parent said give me my keys and I I drove off and I tell you that would be the the worst two years that a man could live separation from god is hell on earth and those next two years was 100% separation from god I lived in dive motels from that point on and just just a lot of bad stuff happening when you left there did you know like you were making a mistake or what was the the the malady was on me so strong the the trouble with personal relationships can't control my emotional nature pray to misery in the pray it was on me so strong that that was making the decision there was there was no thought at that point only I got to get out of here matter of fact I left went and got high for about two weeks and and Jean

1:03:14Miss Jean who was the owner of the place called me back and said Frank you came so far won't you come back and I came and I stayed about three or four days and I just couldn't do it and I was out again

The dive motel

1:03:25and um you know I ended up uh moving back to Columbia and I moved into this uh dive motel man and um I mean I tell you when you when you're at a dive motel if they got a mattress cover never look underneath that mattress cover cause i'mma tell you that was I remember it was just it was terrible man and um I I went and uh so I'm I I'll tell you a funny story I'm in there and I'm I'm getting high I I got locked up one time when I was in in Richland County and I ran into a guy I knew from Charleston and uh so I caught up with this guy and me and him's in the hotel room and we're smoking crack and it's probably 3 o'clock at night and I take a big old blast like boo big old blast and and so I walk out outside right and I and and to get some air you know and I shut the door behind me and I'm trying to get some air and as I look there's these two dudes and one of them goes to the right

1:04:14one of them goes to the left there's two sets of stairs going up and one's taking one side one's taking the other side they're coming up the stairs so I instantly I know these dudes ain't coming to say hey they're coming to rob me and so I jump off the banister

Running down Broad River Road

1:04:27off the second floor go down to the first floor and I take off down Broad River Road man I'm talking running man just boom boom boom boom boom so I run and I'm going and to the point where my mouth is so dry my tongue is like sticking to my mouth you know cause I'm so high you know and so I'm so high and so thirsty like the thirst is over all my sound thinking and like I turn in this neighborhood and I see this house and I go and I knock on the door and at 3 o'clock in the morning I'm knocking on the door the woman comes to the door like can I get some water and the woman's like no Bam slams the door so I go to the neighbor's house knock on the can I get some water no boom and as I'm standing there sanity hits me for a split second and says these people gonna call the cops on you and so I I start running down the road and as I look I see this field right with with like a pond

1:05:16and and there's a fence and so I jump the fence and and there's like freshly tilled ground somebody has tilled the ground up by this on the other side of that fence and I land face first in a pile of dirt and I pick my head up and as I'm standing as I'm picking my head up there's there's weeds against the fence you know a little little height and over the top of those weeds I see a Searchlight going over the top and instantly I know that's the police right so I laid there and somehow I nodded out okay so I nodded out and I don't know how long I was asleep but I I come to and wake up and and I realize I'm not in a field man I'm in somebody's backyard of another row of backyard I there's no field there's no pond I'm in somebody's backyard man and and it's like Breaking Dawn where people are just now starting to go to work so I'm like man I gotta get out of here

1:06:05so I get up and I'm I am dirty from the head to toe on the front where I've been in this till dirt I'm like man I can't even walk right down Broad River like this I gotta I gotta get washed up so there's a pool at at this apartment complex right by and I try to run over there I'm thinking nobody's there but I guess some guy working there's like hey get out of here so now I'm on Broad River I see a gas station I go in this gas station thank god the bathrooms at the front of the this the place I wash my face off and I'm still like I got okay I gotta get something to drink man I need some something to drink so I walk to the to the to the to the counter or whatever with a with a Gatorade and as I'm walking up to the counter the guy looks me in the face he said man you've been working hard hahaha let me tell you I remember the look on his face when he realized man this dude ain't been working you know and and so then I go and I I I'm like man I can't even I call a cab cab comes

1:06:57he sees how dirty I am he drives off so I'm like what can I do so I remember there's a stripper store got stripper clothes around the corner so I'm like let me just go get a shirt so I run around the corner go go get a shirt I don't even look at what's on the shirt I just buy the shirt that's my size right I put the shirt on I look down and the shirt says I'm horny hahaha I'm like oh my god man so I call a cab go back to the hotel get in my car call the dealer and like hey man can I get some more stuff he's like yeah I got you bro see the book talks about how we cannot bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the pain and the suffering and humiliation of a week or a month ago we're without defense against the first drink see I could not put that in my mind I'm talking about that today and laughing about it

A pain he could not hold onto

1:07:46I promise you when that happened then I would never want another human being to know that happened but I here it is I'm out there again and so I just was blotting out the the the existence my terrible existence the best I could at that time so did you uh you're you're in Broad River you're in Columbia where do you go from there well I I went from there to another great great place I went to the Knights Inn off Bush River Road and um so I'm living at Knights Inn and and and my boss is uh he's paying my he's paying my room before he give me my money okay but I got a guy that I'm buying stuff from that on Friday I'm buying he's coming to the room I'm buying what I want from him and then

1:08:33till Sunday then I'm dead broke he's I spent all my money all week long I'm getting stuff fronted out till Friday

The cycle of addiction

1:08:39where he comes gets his money I buy more spend all my money to Sunday get stuff fronted all week long and this goes on and on and on and on and eventually I get to the point where I'm like dude I ain't I ain't doing this no more man I'm I'm done when he comes today i'mma give him his money and I'm done and uh so he comes knocks on the door and and um I was like hey here's your money right here man he's like what you want I was like dude nothing I'm I'm I'm done I ain't doing nothing no more he says you know what Frank i'mma do you a favor and he breaks off a chunk and sits it right on the edge of the table he says man this one's on the house man this was on me and like dude and that's my boy right there look at him looking out for me and so I go around and and and cut the air down just right I got the air perfect temperature I you know I've looked under the bed nobody's under the bed nobody's in the closet I got the TV sound just perfect I walk outside look both ways

1:09:29no police nowhere and I put that rock on that can and boom and I'm picking up the phone I'm like hey hey hey turn around man turn around I need something he's like dude I ain't even left the parking lot damn and I'm back at it again see I I don't realize the cycle of addiction which is this illness of the body which is when I put drugs and alcohol in my system I get I break out in a phenomenon of craving once I put it in I have no idea when I'm gonna stop and what it is it's like my mother when I was a kid she got stung by a bee and that being bee stung her and she broke out in hives all over her body and there's nothing mentally she could do to stop that that's something physiological happens to her when she gets stung by bee I'm not allergic to bees I've been stung by bees wasps I'm not I don't have a problem

1:10:16but when I put drugs and alcohol in my system of any kind something happens physiologically I break out in something called the phenomenon of craving and once I start I got no idea when I'm gonna stop and the way you diagnose yourself is have you ever used more drugs and alcohol than you planned on and if you have then the conclusion you come to is that

Can't use, can't not use, can't change

1:10:35you can't use I can't I can't use because when I put it in I got no idea when I'm gonna stop but then the next thing is why why do I use if I know once I start I can't stop why do I use illness of the mind which is an obsession a thought that drives out all other thoughts which is characterized by the delusion belief in a lie this time it's gonna be different and and and I say it's a delusion because nobody believes it but me my dealer didn't believe it that's why he he left that rock he ain't my friend he's dropping that rock there because he knows once I hit that first one I'm off to the races my mother when I would drop my clothes off and say Frank I'm a mom I'm just gonna go have a couple beers my mom didn't believe I was gonna have a couple beers she knew the truth I believe I'm only gonna do a little bit or the worst thing I say is f it f it I don't care what happens but three days later when I'm dead broke ain't got nowhere to go and nobody

1:11:24wants to mess with me guess what it ain't f it then what happened to f it three days later f it's gone my mind lied to me and told me f it when it really wasn't f it and then the worst part is that spiritual malady which says as a result of running life on self will I'm blocked from the power of god and I can't change so I can't use cause my body doesn't metabolize like normal people I can't not use because I got a mind that continually tells me that I can and the worst part is the spiritual malady as a result of that I'm blocked from the power of god and I can't change and that's the place that I'm in at that time where I can't use I can't not use and I can't change and things are just getting worse and worse and worse and matter of fact it gets so bad Nathan that I had to move from Columbia move back to Charleston you know what I mean so i'mma get out of Columbia i'mma move back to Charleston

1:12:11Columbia is messed up now Columbia is messed up yeah Charleston was bad but not as bad as Columbia I'm moving back and I move into an in town sweets right across from Northwoods Mall and um away I go a way I go so walk me through from in town suites in Charleston so I up to the point that we met well what happens is I I I'm I'm completely off the chain

Two weeks on fourteen dollars

1:12:38there I I you know for a for a moment the goose hung high I managed to um I had a hundred dollars a day I could spend for like two weeks I had 12 dollars or 14 dollars last me two weeks and I managed to to last two weeks on that 14 dollars my my boss had given me that money to live for the two weeks we weren't working and so I'm thinking I got control I didn't I had the money to to last those two weeks and um but very shortly thereafter gets out of control and um I'm going out and I'm hanging out in bars and I go to this place Wild Wings that's right down the street from the in town sweets and I'm there and I um run into this guy that I had went to high school with I ain't seen this guy in years and it's Sunday so they're closing at 12 but we're in there drinking and and finally I said hey man you wanna do a bump cause I'm not out the hotel room unless I'm getting I'm getting high

1:13:26and so he's like yeah so we go in the bathroom we're doing bumps and at the end of that he's like hey man um I really like to party some more but I you know we can't go back to my place cause I got my wife my kids and I'm like dude come back to my place so he's like okay I said follow me so he follows

In Town Suites

1:13:40me and we leave out the place and we drive a block down the road into in town suites and we pull in and we get out the cars and we're walking up the stairs and I remember him looking at me he's like hey man I thought we was going back to your place I said this is my place bro he's like bro this is a hotel room I'm like what are you talking about it's a bachelor pad man they clean the room once a week now the funny thing is 10 years prior I had worked in a car dealership across the street at another Chevy store and there was a salesman there who was work who was working there who was living in in town suites and in my mind I'm thinking who lives at in Town Suites two years later I'm living in in Town Suites you know and and and the book talks about in the doctor's opinion how our alcoholic life seems the only normal one see it didn't drag me down it it dragged drugs and alcohol pulled me down so slowly I could not sense where I was at

1:14:28kind of like today I live I live in a house that's got a dock and I'm on the water and you can take a piece of church's chicken and put some hot sauce on it and take a string and tie it to it and drop it in that in that brackish water and there's crabs down there

The crab and the chicken

1:14:40and a crab will bite that chicken and be so enthralled in it that you can pull that string out and put it in a bucket and he never knows he left the water that's how I was it dragged me down so slow I could not differentiate the truth from the false I could not could not see what it was doing to me and so I'm I'm going out now and and um again I'm running into people I know I I end up running into this that old friend of mine Joey that I had partied with years ago and um you know at this time he's not as bad as I am and so every time I would see him he he um he would uh you know I would have drugs on me you know so I see him I got drugs he's just drinking and doing some other stuff at that time but he was on pills but every time I'd see him and I'd walk in a bar he'd whisper to somebody like like literally

1:15:27every single time he's whispering and the first couple times you don't think anything of it but after a while you start to what is he whispering to them every time I walk in and then and then a few times he's whispering to people I know he doesn't even know and this one time I come in and it's like he went to somebody

The rat

1:15:41I like he walked to somebody to start whispering and so I get convinced dude this dude is a rat man he's trying to rap me out I'm like so I call the dealer we getting stuff from I'm like dude don't sell no more stuff to him he's a rat his whole family's rats and the dude's like I won't so I'm like okay so about two weeks later I'm driving around and I get a call from a guy who knows both of us and he's like hey man why are you going around saying Joey's a rat I said because every time I see him he's whispering to somebody and the dude says man he ain't he ain't whispering he ain't he ain't ratting you out he's talking about how f'd up you are let let me tell you man um the Big Book talks about a pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization let me tell you this loss of kids loss of jobs loss of girlfriends loss of family

1:16:32loss of freedom none of that hurt me like knowing what other people really thought about me and see I had this little bit of veneer that I had this little thin layer of veneer that was me and and all you had to do is barely scratch it and you could see there was nothing inside and when I knew what people thought about me I wanted to stop so bad it was unbelievable and when I couldn't I knew in my heart I'm done I've tried recovery before it ain't working for me and I got convinced I'm all used to death and so I um you know I I go out on a run and and and I'm I'm I'm just in a constant state of of getting high I I know I'm more used to death that's what's gonna happen and one day I get a call out of the blue from from my my daughter's mother my youngest daughter

1:17:22two pounds one ounce and she tells me Frank Madison's got a learning problem and I'm like what I meant bro this it hurt me so bad to hear that and it what was funny was it was a Sunday and and I had a hundred bucks left on me cause I had went to a family reunion for a couple days so I had not blown all my money so I'm in I'm walking around the parking lot thinking how can I parlay this hundred dollars into an all night affair and as I'm doing that she calls and and she tells me that and I I just felt terrible and so I um I was like um

A promise about money

1:17:51I was like man I hang up and and I I get this determination Welling inside of me and I call her back and I'm like you know what I'm gonna have that money for you I'm the whatever money she needs I'm gonna have from you she's like you you told me that before I said you write it in stone I'm gonna be there for her I called my mother I said mom I'm getting out of this hotel room but I'm I'm dropping off money to you Madison needs it for for the school she's got to go to she said like Frank you better I call the guy that I was working for I'm like dude I'm getting out of this hotel room and he's like man you told me that before I said dude I swear I go to work on Monday don't sell anything Tuesday I sell something get money in the bank by 2:00 if I got a check in the bank by 2 I pressured him out so hard that he would overnight me a check for what he owed me the next morning at my grandfather's house the next morning is Wednesday I got a 15 dollar check

1:18:39waiting for me on my grandfather's porch still no thought of drinking or using I drive to the house rip the rip the overnight open no thought of drinking or using

The hundred dollar thought

1:18:48go to the BBT right in front of the the mall no thought of using go in there cash that check walk to the car and as soon as I sit down suddenly the thought crosses my mind Frank you can just go get a hundred dollar piece you'll have you got fourteen hundred dollars left Mama be home by the time you're done she'll be done you can drop that money off everything will be good to go now vaguely I know once I get started I ain't stopping but this time I mean business it's my daughter three days later fifteen hundred dollars later a hundred phone calls later I did it again so again I'm at that point where I'm like dude I'm done and on July 4th 2,007 I roll out to go get a package from a guy and roll through a stop sign cop pulls me over and I got a warrant uh from for a uh

1:19:36I had missed a court date and there's a 50 dollar court cost and that I had not paid and so they're gonna put me in jail and so I'm like okay and but I got money so I called my mom said mom I got money just get me out I'll pay you back I do

The night of the arrest

1:19:50I run into this girl and we get a hotel room and um we start partying and um you know I don't wanna get into too much detail about it but but what ends up happening that night is I end up the end of that night ends up being that I end up running into a to a property that was not my own out of my mind on on drugs and alcohol and end up looking at 15 years to life and I that that's how I end up in Berkeley County Jail and um I'm in there and thinking man it's over for me man life is over I'm I'm I'm you know I'm they got me in a house I'm 34 almost 35 I'll be 50 before I'm before I get out I mean I might as well end it now and so luckily the towels they give you ain't long enough to hang yourself

1:20:37or else I'd kill myself and so I um I I I I asked for a Bible at one point and I start reading Romans chapter 7 struggling with the sin

Romans 7 in a jail cell

1:20:46within and it says for the good I wanna do I do not do know the evil that I don't wanna do this I keep on doing and I said that's me and it says who will rescue me from this body of death thanks be to god through Jesus Christ our Lord and I knew at that moment that was the power and um you know I the bond was too high to get out but um you know eventually they get the bond lowered my grandfather put his house up because my parents said we ain't helping you this time and I end up um trying to call my parents tried to call the old place any link that I had been to and they was like ah we can't help you but but maybe this other place can and it was a place in Florence South Carolina called the Owl's Nest and my mom said okay Frank I want you to call up there and I called and this guy answered his name was Nathan Hahaha and he's like um you know he asked me all these questions

1:21:33you you asked me all these questions and and your last question to me was why do you wanna get sober I said because I can't go on living like I'm living man and you like good answer when you get out of there you come straight here and that's what I did went straight to the house next now the story is like they wouldn't even your fan your mom picked you up but they wouldn't let you go to the house right no they got a hotel she got a dive hotel room so that I could uh take a shower cause I wanted to take a shower

Out of jail and on the way to Florence

1:22:02and uh and and so she got a dive hotel on the way would not take me to the house drove me up there and they were like hey we can show you around matter of fact we're about to have a meeting you're more than welcome to stay and she's like no thank you and back the car up and was gone and I wouldn't see them again for about four five months and and you know but it was the best thing that ever happened you know so what was that it was it 20 years 19 years ago 19 years ago 19 years ago is how long we've uh we've been knowing each other so let let's kind of walk through that man I you know cause you know I you and I we kind of walk this thing out out together what do you remember about early recovery I know you know when your back's up against the wall and you're facing life in in prison

1:22:51you kind of get out of your environment right

Arriving at the Owl's Nest

1:22:54and you roll up what was going through your mind when you pull up in Florence I just just I I hope it works I I just had hope man you know I remember um the guy who ran the place Steve Shaw uh calling us in I was you know I was still jail white I had been in the jail for so long that I was I was Lily white and so they he called me and two other guys up there and um they're all having a good time there's guys and girls and they're listening to music and having a good time and you got these three new guys and so these guys are kind of the guys I was with were kind of like enjoying it but in my mind I'm thinking he ain't calling us up here for no reason there's something about to happen here you know and so he finally stops the music and he starts looking at me he's like um let me ask you Frank why do you why do you why do you drink why do you use and I'm like well I can give you the you know the medical

1:23:42reason and he's like okay we'll do that and I give him a bunch of mumbo jumbo and I was like but he's like no that's not why you you you drink what I mean why do you drink and I was like well I don't know he's like cool

Why do you drink?

1:23:51cause I don't feel good sometimes and he's like well have you ever drink drink a drug when you felt good I was like yeah he's like well that ain't why and so we go through this for about five minutes and finally I was like man I don't know why I drink he's like exactly and he had me open up the book to the fourth to the first edition where it says to show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered is the main purpose of this book and I remember feeling the like like hearing that and thinking maybe just maybe I can get this if they show me cause nobody had ever told me precisely how to recover and and I remember that you know maybe I can get this thing you know and um so I um from there I um you know you they give us a big book and they say hey read everything in black give you two weeks to read everything in black every single page and you know for the first time I didn't hedge on it I didn't say I'm only gonna do this I'm gonna

1:24:41tell them I did this and did this I just said I'm gonna do whatever they tell me to do and so I I did that and I remember going to a meeting and um it was a it was a we were still newcomers so they sat us up front and um so as we're sitting up front they um in the middle of it they're edifying people calling people up like everybody's clapping hey you know everybody's clapping I mean there's 110 people in there that we got at the time big old recovery community at this time and um and and out of the blue he the the Steve says he looks in the crowd and points out three guys you you and you you can't clap you can't be happy for people get your stuff get out of here seniors go get them get them out of here I'm like what but I'm seeing them right I'm and I'm thinking they getting kicked out for not clapping and I'm like dude now later I would find out there was other stuff they had done prior to that a lot of other stuff they had done prior to that

1:25:31but that was that was the end but in my mind they're getting kicked out for not clapping and I'm like dude I they ain't playing I gotta get serious and I went back and I wrote a letter to god and I just you know essentially was like I'm crazy certifiable I can't stop using and I don't know why god please help me to find you I just wrote an honest letter to god

Pushing his chips all in

1:25:52and from that moment forward I pushed my chips all in and and just said I'm willing to do whatever now with that being said you know I got a sponsor he ends up getting me on the fourth step this time around I do write where I was selfish dishonest self seeking if I start writing you know I'm willing to do it but about halfway through that four step I started bogging down a little bit and um one night I'm there and I am kicking the covers man I'm so restless I got a hundred dollar Bill in my pocket cause you work at this rehab at at a five dollar an hour job like the other one and I'm working this job at it so I got a hundred dollar Bill on me and I'm so irritable that I get up to try to go to the office at probably 10 o'clock at night and the girl Crystal who's working there sees me but she's got her mind on something else she's like hey good to see you I'm out of here see you later and I'm like oh my god man and so I go and try to lay down again and I'm kicking the covers

1:26:40and I walk back out to the middle of the place outside and the thought in my mind is you can get a cab now I got no idea where I'd go but there's a thought I can get a cab and just get out of here and as I'm doing that I see this newcomer

Carrying the message

1:26:54I had been there about 60 days and a newcomer is you know brand new and I see this newcomer walk out the newcomer house and something just tells me go over to that guy and so I go over to this guy and we go inside and I just start talking to him and I'm talking about him about how I feel and everything I'm going through and and my thoughts of want to leave and this that the other for about an hour and at the end of that hour that guy looks at me and he says man thank you so much man I was thinking about leaving till you came over here and in my heart I was thinking no thank you cause I went back laid in that bed and slept like a baby and that's when I realized man I got to help other people I got to help other people and um so I I get the sponsor and I got this guy he's 10 years younger than me but he's the first guy that's ever talked about getting high and being as messed up as I was and nobody

1:27:43wants to admit you're that screwed up but this guy admitted it so he's a great guy and I do my fifth step with this guy and um shortly thereafter he relapses he leaves uh commences

A new sponsor

1:27:54the place and relapses so I gotta find a new sponsor and that's when you come into the picture you know and um you know I you pick me up as a sponsor sponsy and um we start going through the steps and you know there was a couple pivotal moments in my sobriety one of them was um a guy that I had been locked up with when um when I had those charges with that girl with a you know first degree burglary kidnapping and assault with intent to kill a guy that I had went to high school with was in there with me at that time and he happened to show up at the Owl's Nest and I come up to you and I'm like hey man this guy's this guy's I know this guy I knew him from high school we were locked up together now he's here and you like hey okay well I want you to get the big book and I want you to go out there and read the doctor's opinion with him I'm like I I what you like yeah just get the book just read the doctor's opinion with him just break it down for him I'm like dude I I've never done that before you like no

1:28:46don't worry about it just go down there get the book read I'm like I don't know what to say you like just go down there I'm like okay and I go down there and I'm like hey man how you doing and we sit down and I I pull that book out

Reading the book with sponsees

1:29:00and I just start reading with him and I have no idea what I said but um I've never stopped to this day I read I read from the Fords all the way through to the to the to the third step prayer on our knees with every single sponsy and we read it with with a group of guys you know and uh and I got that from you there and um you know you showed me how to sponsor you know you you showed me how to sponsor you showed me um you showed me what a true amends was I got to go make amends to my family and um you know at Christmas time I will say this though Thanksgiving came that year and um you know I was going to church with these guys that that's church Van had would pull up and a guy who used to go to the Owl's Nest drove it and he had he had come on Thanksgiving and my everybody's family seemed like had either

1:29:48come to get them or they were with their families except for me seemed like and he pulls up and he's like hey man come back to our place we got food him and this other big guy I mean this this they're both three 50 400 pound guys and they're in a van which each one of them has to have an elbow out the window to fit in the van okay because they're so big yeah Big Ben yeah and I got rest both their souls yeah and R I P Ben and Wesley and Wesley Clineden that's right and so these guys got their elbows out and and they're like get Frank come on we want you I'm like dude I don't feel like it I just want to be in self pity like nah nah you coming man come on grab two guys come on and so I grabbed the guy Dennis that I went to high school with and I grabbed another guy and um we go back to their house and they got a single wide trailer but and when you went into their kitchen they had the most food that you could possibly jam in a spot man and so we eat like kings

1:30:37the people from the church had donated food and we're they cook food and so we're eating like kings and so then we go in the living room and there's two love seats or excuse me two two um two uh recliners that are obviously their chairs okay and then there's a love seat right for the three of us right and so I'm sinner man in the love seat right we're all jammed up three of us in this tiny love seat

The Thanksgiving van

1:30:58watching the Dallas Cowboys play somebody on football on on Thanksgiving and about halfway through that game the thought came to me this can be my family and and that realization man was unbelievable man unbelievable and so um you know I I just really was just giving it everything I had you know I I was seeking god out for me through the church is how I I seek him out through the Bible I was you know I would walk everywhere I had a I used to have a bag two bags that I put together plastic bags that I would carry my Bible my big book and my fourth step everywhere I went and um you know and I'm I'm just working and where are you working at I worked at this place Paris Furniture it was a it was a uh furniture store that you know I sold probably $10,000 worth of furniture a week

1:31:48and every two weeks I would clear $500 and it was just enough to kind of like pay my rent have $100 to live on during the week to buy whatever I needed and buy like like uh food or whatever and uh so I'm working there and and but you know the lawyer has told me I have to have a lawyer at this time cause I got serious charges my family's not paying for it and the lawyer's

The lawyer and the retainer

1:32:09like hey when you get out of rehab you can start paying me then well 30 days into this rehab he's calling me wanting to know where money's at okay he's called me at the the place I'm working I got him calling child support I ain't paid child support in years I'm owed like 16 grand in child support I got them calling and so I'm thinking man how am I gonna pay this and so one day it's a Saturday and everybody in there selling man I mean it seems like everybody's got customers that are buying I ain't selling nothing and and this this store had big old windows up front that you could look out into the parking lot and it's actually a grocery store parking lot as well so it's huge parking lot and and everybody's selling but me man and I'm like god please please please help me please help me and as I'm sitting there I look and I see a van that looks just like the van that picks us up from the house and they would come and drop you off at your job and pick you up and take you back

1:32:58now it might take you three hours for them to pick you up or take you back but you know you you know those were the vans and so this van pulls up and I noticed and I'm like that looks like the Owl's Nest van and then I was like that is the house next van and then it stops I'm like I wonder what they're doing there and then I see the owner of the place Steve get out with some other guys I was like oh my god I'm I'm praying for god to help me yeah with you I was like bro it's it this is the spiritual police it's unbelievable and I run to the I run to the van and I'm like dude you ain't gonna believe this man I'm praying for god to show me something please to help me and you guys show up I'm like it's like the spiritual police and Steve says yeah and we came to buy $60,000 worth of furniture yeah that money paid the lawyer mm hmm paid paid the child support it help help pay that

1:33:46and that so I could get got by god had provided what I needed it was amazing man that was one of the biggest spiritual experiences I had there was that that event happening you know and um you know I had another one prior to that there was a guy

Maurice and the furniture store

1:34:01there named Maurice who um was from the hood he was from a road in in in North Charleston called ataway his family uh was a his dad was a reverend at a church there and he um I grew up there and he would uh steal two left shoes and trade them for crack right like he'd tell the guys he had shoe he go to the store you can't get a right and left so he'd steal two lefts of the same shoe and go sell them to the drug dealers around here you know what I mean so he you know so this guy is getting high and living at the place I bought my stuff from and I'm in there and I'm a newcomer and at the time I was early in there and and he's doing a book study and and at the end of it I walked up to him I'm like hey man how long you been here he's like uh 30 days I was I was floored man here's a guy doing a book study with five or six of us guys

1:34:52who's only been there 30 days who lives and was getting high at the place I bought my stuff from and here he is carrying the message I could not deny

A spiritual experience

1:35:03what god was doing in that man's life that was my first spiritual experience that thing in the grocery at at the at the at furniture store that was the second one and for me I had several and my four step when I did I did another four step with you and in it I finally I realized that that I I deep down I felt like a two so I had to portray myself as a 10 because so that you would you would you try to make you think I'm a 10 because then I feel like a five if you treat me like a 10 then I don't feel like a 10 I feel like a five like I'm okay because deep down I feel like it too and I realized that in that inventory and I remember walking out of that inventory thinking I'm not better than anybody else I'm not worse than anybody else I'm at one with everybody else

1:35:53that was the inventory I did with you and to me that was what added up to a spiritual awakening somewhere along in there ideas emotions and attitudes that were once the guiding force to me were cast to one side and a completely new set of conceptions

Sponsoring guys and a small car

1:36:06began to dominate me and you know that's when I started sponsoring guys you know in there and um you know I ended up um completing the program moving out into a house they didn't have Oxford houses or things like that there um so I moved in with a couple guys couple guys that got in a house I thought I was gonna have to live at they called the the Alumni Center but it was the Relapse Center is what they were calling it the nickname because nobody was staying sober there I thought I was gonna have to move into that and these two guys said hey man you we see you doing a deal why don't you come move in with us at the time I didn't have a car I my job I was gonna have to walk to and from work and maybe even walk to meetings and I just told myself man I don't care what I gotta do I'm gonna hit meetings every single day and I never did walk I you know they drove me the first week or two to work and back and then my family fixed my beat up

1:36:55BMW by that time that BMW looked like a looked like a bass boat more like than a than a than a car meaning the back seats wouldn't even rise I had lowered and and raised the lower the the back seats the front seats so many times that they got stuck down yeah so like like I could only fit two people in the car you know what I mean and it didn't have a back so it's like you're riding in a boat you know and um but I remember praying for god to help me get another car so I could fit more guys in and I ended up getting a big old big old Cadillac that I could fit six guys in yeah and um you know in a way I in a way I was going so you get it you get your car right where do you go from there because we're still faced with legal challenges and I do want to because I witnessed like I'm I'm really excited to kind of hear

1:37:42from this point because you're you're actually doing the deal that's the one thing you know people they think they think oh they're gonna miss something right like whether it's a long term program or whatever and it's like I can honestly whenever I look at your your story right you committed to to just really buying in man you know what I'm saying you got in you worked hard

Service and the ripple effect

1:38:10you weren't making a whole lot of money you stayed faithful you really grabbed a hold of like service and and helping other people and you know nineteen years later I mean it's fair to say thousands and thousands and thousands of people have been been helped by you and I I know that you know what I'm saying I mean your book studies at your house the Cocaine Anonymous here in in Charleston South Carolina um you know I personally witnessed it and all of that stuff happened in Florence South Carolina facing 15 to life right right like there's no there's no like okay god I have conditions you were just it was like hey it's gonna be what it's gonna be this is what I'm doing and you did it so um so you get your car you you probably taking guys the meetings and all of that so I guess maybe some things

1:39:01stand up but you know I want to talk about that court date well you know I'd um you know I I was in a house that was empty and nobody lived in it at the time so so my lawyer was telling me hey Frank you're gonna get probation this is not gonna be something that's gonna be you know do time this is what he's telling me for about a year at about a year's time he um calls me to his office in Monks Corner so I drive from Florence to Monks Corner and he sits me down he says Frank the best they're gonna offer you

The plea offer

1:39:30it's three years prison three years probation the woman who owns that house is not wanting to come off of it and they're not gonna they're not and because of your prior history they're not gonna come down off of this and I was like man I mean I'm just now getting free man I mean I'm I'm free from from addiction I said what can I do he said well you can throw yourself on the mercy of the court but I can't guarantee you anything and I'm like okay and so I I leave feeling dejected man and I go back to the owl's nest and there's this guy there who looks just like Dale Earnhardt junior man I mean Don Don a is what I'll call him he looks just like Dale Earnhardt Jr man it's unbelievable and um he's in there and he sees me he's like Frank what's wrong with you man I said Moe you know this guy's telling me you know best I can do is throw myself on the mercy of the court they asked me three years prison three years probation I don't know what to do and he's like he's like uh

1:40:22and I'm like what I was like what what are you what are you trying to say man he's he says when the judge goes to sin at you whatever's in his mind is gonna leave him and I'm like okay okay so fast forward to the day before I go to court we are over at your apartment you got an apartment in West Ashley you wanted to do a book study of sorts so it's it's the night before I'm going to my sentencing and you know what I mean or whatever it's gonna be and so I I go there and he um you know you asked me you said um what's your favorite line in the big book and I remember reading out of page 100 and it says when we look back we realize that the things that came to us when we put ourselves in God's hands we're better than anything we could have planned that's what I read that night and so next morning

1:41:08we go to court and I say we cause you were there you me Jean my parents and we go to court and I go in and and the guy had told me I was gonna do an offer plea meaning I'm not gonna plead guilty or or innocent I'm just saying that they got enough evidence that that's what it would be I get in there and he comes up to me and he's got this paper

A paper to sign

1:41:25he's like I need you to sign this and I look and it says second degree burglary violent I was like what I was like bro what are you talking he's like man I need you to sign this though man he says I promise you I've talked to the prosecutor they're not gonna bring up your prior history if you sign off on this they're not gonna bring up your prior history and I'm telling you you need to do this so I'm like okay okay so I I signed it and I'm feeling not good about that so we we go up before the judge and the prosecution speaks first and they start naming every charge you know that I'd ever done I'm talking they're going back so what he told me is completely false they're naming every single thing I've ever done and they're going through the list and at the end they're like hey we offered him three years he wouldn't take it we're saying give him 10 years and so um so then it comes and and and you know you speak Jean speaks for me and then I speak and really

1:42:17you know I didn't even say a lot of words that what I really in a nutshell

In front of the judge

1:42:20said was you know my whole life I was in a prison of my mind today I'm free you know and so it it goes back up to the judge and um as the judge is about to deliberate all of a sudden boom everybody's scrambling like what is that what's that noise what's that noise and everybody's looking around and finally the the the receptionist is there she's like it's it's the copy machine he's like well cut it off and it and it won't it won't cut off finally he says unplug it and he unplug she unplugged the thing and so the guy kind of like he kind of like looks around real quick back and forth kind of shuffling his head and he looks and he takes a second takes a breath and he he looks and he says um looks me dead in the eye and he says son I'm giving you a 10 year sentence suspended upon 3 years probation

1:43:11but if you get in trouble you do in 10 years boom it hits the gavel and here it is I walk out the courtroom man it was the most unbelievable thing man bro it was the craziest thing uh I I'll never forget

A sentence suspended

1:43:26cause we were like the last to go and the judge is throwing out like he's sending people back up the road 30 years bro 30 years 20 fifty and I'm just like oh my god this is not this is not gonna be good I was freaking out and just like you said that it just and you could see his demeanor right like he wasn't he was not having a good day and that that FAX machine or copy machine making that noise you know and the echo in that courtroom and you could just see him in his head he just his head was just shaking and when he said like you could just tell that there was something that had just like changed and I I remember like whenever he said it I didn't even know what it meant you know I was like what is he going to jail or not like cause I'm freaking out you know what I'm saying I like I don't even know what he says what's

1:44:17that me me and me and Jean are looking at each other like damn and when we found you know kind of kind of caught our breath you know and and found out that they

Probation

1:44:26gave you suspended on on three years so talk about what that was like on on probation for you like what what came after that cause you know hey probation isn't easy you got probation and and child support and I mean let me tell you it it's way easier sober than it is getting high I can tell you that because I had done probation many times before and and and was getting high and it was nothing but problems man you know what I mean I mean it was getting popped on piss test and and all these different things but but this time around I went in and my demeanor was so different I was um not the same person that I had been and it didn't take but a couple visits for the guy to realize hey this guy is serious about staying sober he had heard about the Owl's nest it was in Florence and he you know he said hey some people talk negatively

1:45:14about it but a lot of people say it does a lot of good and he could tell that I was doing the right thing I was I was selling windows I was making good money I was paying my bills I was getting everything taking care of and um so they they really had me coming every three months and it was just checking in and because of the charge that I had they couldn't let me off even when I moved back to Charleston and had um had a new guy he wanted to try to get me off but but um because of my charges I could not now you start you start to mention selling windows now did you start a business yourself in Florence or how was that going no no no I I I moved in with those guys and and I and they said um they said where you gonna work man and I said I'm gonna sell windows and they like well where's the office I said well I got a window in the trunk of my car they like no no I mean

1:46:00where's the office at I said well there's no office I mean I'm I'm selling windows out the back of my my trunk and they're like bro you how you gonna do there's no way well after about two weeks they didn't ask any more questions I mean I bought new new clothes and you know what I mean and so I just was selling windows like hot cakes in in in Florence I mean I was I mean everybody and their brother was buying windows and I and um you know I it was doing well so so from that point forward um you know I was always a good salesman when when even when getting high I was I was a damn good salesman when I wasn't getting high and could really focus all my attention in it it became unbelievable and um so I worked with him for for a couple more years but um but yeah that's what I was doing at that time and you're working with other people

1:46:48I'm working with other people like crazy I'm like I said I'm going to church on Sunday I'm at the place I'm going back to the rehab like Bill Wilson talks about during the first year and a half he had there were waves of self pity and resentment and that that sometimes nearly drove him back to drink but when all other measures fails work what another alcoholic would say the day many times he would go to his old hospital in despair and upon talking to a man there would be amazingly lifted up and set on his feet it's a design for living that works in the rough going well let me tell you I I just I would go back to the old rehab I sponsored guys in there I would do step work every day they knew me they

Learning to help people

1:47:25I would go in the office their admin office your office actually I did fist steps right at your desk at night I would go work during the day I'd come at night get my sponsies do fist steps and I Learned how to help people the nuts and bolts of of helping people as I was doing that and um another guy that I was friends with uh named Ronnie had um had gotten sober at the same time and um he had started a a year out of sobriety had started a place in a Santee uh Lenore's is what it was called at the time it would eventually morph into what is known now as trust and recovery and um but he had his place there so I would be all week long at the Owl's Nest helping guys there and then on the weekends I would drive down to Lenoir's and I would help and sponsor guys there and so I had thrown myself into helping other people in a big way R I P Ronnie Byers he used to always cause you know Jean

1:48:16and I live together and I would come in late at night cause I mean I'd be all over the place and working 18 hour days and there'd be freaking Ronnie on the couch and I'd be like damn it Jean and he hey babe babe come on babe hahaha and uh you know I I think I think it's a

What came out of Florence

1:48:33a fair thing to to say what came out of uh out of the Alice is truly incredible it it set in in effect a ripple effect that will never stop like if you look at the recovery communities in south whether it's the Potter House whether it's the Bridge Center whether it's Charleston recovery um you know you're looking at the Oaks Lotus Lotus like all of these things that help I mean there's hundreds of people in recovery on these places on site today right now as we speak there have been thousands and thousands and tens of thousands you know in my career is 20 years in this thing you look at that me I mean it's spread to Dallas Texas we got people in Canada I mean it's literally probably all over the world it's it's truly amazing because

1:49:22starting it out well first it was at the post office and then the little house on Waverly what's

The decision to move back to Charleston

1:49:27what's been able to come out of that is truly truly miraculous so you don't end up staying in in Florence cause I remember you call me and you like bro you know what do you think right cause uh you're you're considering to make make the jump back to Charleston it's been what a number of years two years right so kind of walk me through that process on what how because I think this is important um and the reason why I say that I'm not a one white chip guy you've been sober 19 years right like if I if if if I were to be honest money was a big driver for me because you know and I think we kind of share this like if I don't have it people aren't gonna like me as well as I'm extremely self centered like you know what I think is a necessity is not a necessity right like I'm just

1:50:18there are things I think in that we can both probably speak on on to this but I think it's important to kind of walk through that process and I had to learn this cause I wouldn't be where I am today

A job offer he turned down

1:50:30if I had took in the job like I had a job offer six figure job offer you know at a time where you know we talk you talk about Dennis well his cousin Mickey he's the guy that's help me this weird how this stuff comes full circle and the question was posed what's your motivation and my motivation was purely money and I was like I've been here before I've done this you know what I'm saying you've seen me you know I will compromise everything for a damn dollar so I think it's important for our audience cause there may be some people new in recovery or or wherever where doing that time putting that time in making sure you're on sure footing but how you kind of transitioned from Florence to Charleston cause all your recovery network is there right so maybe you could speak on that well before I say that you know I I would tell you you know you talk about yourself

1:51:22with money and and I can tell you I've known you for 19 years and um you know I I told you many times prior that that um you know god didn't put you on on this earth for that you you anybody who knows you Nathan knows that that you were put on this earth to help other people you're you have a gift for it and that's why god put you on this earth and anything you do other than that was not gonna be profitable and and and and we talked about that New York yeah that's a fact you know and um so you know other people might not me but it no but it's beautiful that's what's beautiful about seeing how things have come around for you in such a huge way um but but yeah when I when I was in Florence obviously I was comfortable in Florence but I kind of burnout Florence is only so big of a town I'm selling windows you know that's how I'm making a living so that's kind of coming to an end

1:52:10my kids live in Charleston you know so I'm still not fully integrated back with my family yet um you know and it just kind of everything was pointing to the signs like it's time to go back home but I was still scared to go back home you know and so I I before I I I I definitely sought council I um with you and some other people and and then

Moving back to Charleston

1:52:31before I came down I went and um I started going to a couple meetings I popped in a couple meetings and one of the meetings that I went to I ran into a guy who had been to the Alphas I didn't even remember the guy's name was Scott and he's like hey Frank how you doing man he's like are you moving down here I said uh yeah I'm thinking about it he says well man I will you be my sponsor I was like yeah I'll be your sponsor he says I got three or four other guys who need to go through the steps can you help them too I'm like absolutely I can so the biggest fear I had was how who am I gonna help when I get down here and so prior to me even moving down I already had a sponsy and other guys that I was gonna be carrying through the steps and so you know I I my mom had found a place that she thought was gonna be good I wanted to live in another area of town West Ashley where we're at right now

1:53:19she wanted me to live on this in this place called Daniel Island and you know there was an apartment there or a condo and um I was going back and forth on it but the thought that got me on Daniel Island was the fact I'd never used there everywhere else in town I had gotten high I had not there so I end up moving into this condo and um you know just basically throw myself into the program

Finding a local sponsor

1:53:40I needed a sponsor because I had a sponsor back in Florence but I needed a local sponsor you know I knew that I needed one and so I went to find the perfect sponsor I wanted a guy who went through the illness just like me got it just like me was doing the deal and I ran into a guy who I thought was doing that but the truth was he was more into his family which is nothing wrong with being in your family but he was he was at the sacrifice of the program he was had dove into his family it would end up catching up with him later on he would not stay sober because of that but um you know I asked him to sponsor me and it didn't work out he was just never available and um so so then I um I it was probably a month man or or more I did not have a sponsor and during that time there were moments where I was going so crazy in between my ears at times that I thought anybody can sponsor me better than I can sponsor myself

1:54:31and I asked another guy and this guy was if I was a brand spanking new guy would be the perfect sponsor he wanted you at everything he was doing and every event he was at and everything and I already had sponsies already I had work obligations I was dating this girl already who would later become my wife and and and so I had a lot going on and so it wasn't working out and then I ran into my current sponsor um and I for his anonymity I'll just say Randy s and and shout out Randy that's right and he um he was a guy who had experience like me and and had what I wanted and um he's been my sponsor ever since and so I I landed on the right sponsor and um during this time I just kept helping guys I kept doing the book studies that I had done in Florence I did them with guys here um I you know

1:55:22just all the different things I got a home group I think that's so important a lot of people they go into recovery community and it's such a tight knit group when you leave there it's imperative that you go get a home

The importance of a home group

1:55:33group a place where you do your work out of where people know they're gonna see you as a matter of fact my home group is is just a couple blocks from here you know CA Cocaine Anonymous and and there was a time I was probably three years sober and this guy came I was like like I had missed a meeting for some reason work wise I couldn't make it on like a Friday or something like that and so it's Monday we do Mondays and Fridays at 7:30 and so it's Monday and this guy comes and he's like you know what man I he's like I came here a couple weeks ago and you weren't here man he's like uh he's like uh where was you at man I'm like I well I what do you mean where was I at I'm here every week where were you at see I took offense because I was not spiritually fit when I walked in the door really what he was saying is you're here all the time I expect to see you when you're here when I'm here and see when you show up at a home group

1:56:24each and every time they're open people start knowing that when I go there I'm gonna see you and it helps you pick up sponsors it helps you see guys you hadn't seen in years cause they know if I go to that meeting there's a good chance I'm gonna see Frank and so that was something important that I had Learned from from a sponsor who didn't work out um the importance of a home group and so I was involved in my home group I got involved in the services CA at that time and um you know again I was sponsoring guys and my buddy Ronnie who had started a place in Lenoir's that had fizzled out and he had started a a a place here in Troyston and um and so I was going and helping guys at that place at that time yeah so kind of a walk down history lane which uh you know Cocaine Anonymous today uh is jumping right right

1:57:14but there was a period of several years where you know if it weren't for you Cocaine Anonymous wouldn't exist more than likely you and Ann and Nick and Lee and Lee and um you know persevering it it's not the glitz and the glamour it's continuing to show up to grind it um I think it's important you know

Accountability

1:57:37wherever your people are cause this this is something and I can share this because you were on the other end of this right it brings accountability there's a difference right because I I can travel all over the country and call you and tell you how great things are but but when you get in front of me and you look at me that's a different ball game right and you know we've had a 20 year history like I said you've probably been on the end of it like this guy he's out of his damn mind we've been round and round at time'cause I'm out in the ditch and uh you know the importance of of one showing up cause if you're not there you know somebody's got to be there for for when the newcomer shows up can can I tell a Nathan story real quick sure go ahead well you know you remember when you started the place in a you

1:58:26Nathan started a place up in Polly's Island OK a recovery place with the full circle with the greatest intentions man I mean he had the greatest intentions and what's funny is I had a buddy that I grew up with that had been I

Driving a friend to rehab

1:58:38four years and he was in rehabs I had him in every rehab with of every person that I know back and forth two three times and finally got him at your place and so he calls me up and he's telling me that that you're getting high and I'm like there's no way I'm talking to you on the phone yeah there's no way I mean I'm speaking to you and there's no way he's insane yeah Nathan is not getting high there's no way he's getting high well you know fast forward about six months later I get a call from Nathan and he's like hey um you know I you mind if I come down I just need to get I I man I've messed up but I just need to get a weekend to kind of get my head clear and and I'm like um I'm like OK OK I'm he's like my wife's gonna bring me down he's married at the time Wife's gonna bring me down well she drives down and he gets out the car and I realize he's not a little messed up he is

1:59:27extremely messed up bro you are like like like almost fall down messed up yeah oh yeah I look in her eyes and I realize I don't think she's ever gonna come back again I mean she's dropping you off with the suitcases and I'm thinking she this ain't coming back and so you get in the car with me and you like we need let's go can I let's go to your house and I'm thinking man I can't take it bro he is I got I got my son there I got my wife I'm like there's no way I was like okay I said I tell you what we're gonna we're gonna go there I'm just gonna drive around a little bit though I'm Bonos Nathan I'm driving him up to the Oaks in Greenwood South Carolina so by halfway there he starts realizing we ain't in Charleston he's like where you going where you doing I'm like bro I'm I'm going to the Oaks what man and I don't know I ain't got time I'm busy man I got stuff to do he's got his computer bag with him and all this stuff and I'm like dude

2:00:16no no man we're going to the oak so we get up there and and and so he's got this computer bag right and and and so they're they're they wanna go through all the stuff but the guy tells him hey this computer bag man you cannot use this computer man you're not gonna be he's like I got business to take care they're like I don't care you're not allowed to have it dude you just need to let Frank go back with it you know so so he gives me the computer bag man you know it's this big old bag and so um so I leave him there well

The bag of drugs

2:00:43before that cause the other bag what really kind of distracted from that was the other bag of drugs I had that big softball cause Brian and them talk about like this is the most drugs the Oaks has ever seen right right well yeah yeah that's where they they found that after I left right okay they find that but then I drive back with your with your computer back right and so I'm driving the back way through these country roads man and and literally like at one point I miss a turn and so I'm doing a U turn like in a place you're not even supposed to do it and there's I see a cop and it's the middle of the night but I'm like you know what if at worst I get is a ticket no big deal so I drive all the way home and I get there and you know I'm like well I mean let me just see what the hell I got here what what he's got in this bag I open up the bag and there's a computer in there but there's more drug I mean you got so much drugs in there it's unbelievable

2:01:31I mean so many pills of every kind like I go and try to start flush I try to flush them down the toilet and there's so many they're sticking to the bottom of my toilet like I can't I so finally I'm like I can't even flush them I'm like I'm paranoid to throw them in my trash cause I'm like what if the police I mean I'm a I'm a third yeah I'm I'm a two times I only felt like I get third times a charm I'm done and and so I throw it in there and I'm thinking hey at my mind goes what if that freaking cop would have pulled me over and here I is I tell oh I'm dropping my buddy off at rehab now I'm a two time violent felon that's why I got all these pills on me I'm sure he would believe that right so let me give you some advice if you ever drop a buddy off at rehab and they ask you to to carry their bag home look in that bag before you go home oh man even the last time you like yeah well we Learned

2:02:20that the first time and I was like let me check I was like oh man I'm glad you said something I gotta throw this thing away man yeah yeah oh my god that's hilarious man Jesus yeah I was in a bad way you were you were that's we're it's amazing that we're alive so you come back in and you're speaking on on service um talk to me cause you know

Lessons from 19 years

2:02:45let's just call it 20 years is a long time and I think there's levels to this stuff right cause I think we we start to realize that yeah man it's great that we're not using right but there because you can't get to the rest right so in your 19 years of of recovery what are like some of the the periods and things that kind of stand out to you and lessons that you've Learned and well you know I I tell you I um I got a I here it is I'm I'm free I've I've got a business I started a window business for myself the partner I was with the guy I was with that we had partnered at that point wanted wanted out so so I basically took over the window business and um and I'm selling windows and everything's going great I mean I'm I'm with my girlfriend who would again

2:03:33become my wife we've moved out of that condo into a rental house everything seems like it's going swimmingly and we've we got we got her son is is is visiting or what not we I don't even we may have even had custody of him at that point but he's coming and visiting everything's really really good and um

A $13 million letter from the EPA

2:03:50I get a letter in the mail from the EPA saying that I owe $13 million hmm at two days before Christmas they had sent me a letter prior to that asking me to send all my jobs in that I had tested for lead I had never even heard of a lead test in for Windows I I apparently I started my business right when it started and had no idea it was there nobody mentioned it to me talk to me about it somehow I'd advertised on Bing or something like that and they must have seen that and and asked me to send them my records my lawyer said hey it's like the NC Double A's send them everything you got cause if you don't then you really get in trouble so I send them every job I've got they sent me a letter two days before Christmas saying that my fine is $13 million two days before Christmas man like like I am like unbelievable man they had overnighted it to make sure I got it two days before Christmas

2:04:38and so I get that letter man and I'm in full panic mode man and I call my sponsor I'm like but I I I I can't even talk I'm stuttering I'm so upset and I'm trying to explain it to him and I'm talking and talking and finally he says Frank stop talking about it he says I want you to listen to me

The sponsor's advice

2:04:52before you you say another word I want you to call three other addicts or alcoholics and ask them how their day's been going I was like but but he's like no do that and then call me back click hangs up the phone so I call the first guy I have no idea what that guy says I I don't I can't even hear it second guy I hear maybe a little bit the third guy I hear a little bit more okay so I call my sponsor back he said Frank I want you to listen to this you have not paid them one dime he said call your Lord I said he ain't gonna be there it's the Christmas two days for he's like just call him and leave him a message okay just call him leave him a message and then you know just call me back so I call a lawyer and he's actually getting all his stuff about to leave for a month for Christmas and I catch him right before he walks out the door he says Frank what what I can't believe they did that to you that was a jerk thing to do don't worry about it I got you just enjoy your Christmas so

2:05:44the whole year I had been trying to save up a certain amount of money to be a nest

The best Christmas ever

2:05:47egg in case the wheels fell off I saved that money in six months once I saved that six months of money and that money in six months now I'm trying to save money so something happens I don't have to touch the nest egg so it's already expanded and so I'm working myself to death all year long and and all of a sudden this happens and I realized you know what if I'm dead broke living under a bridge for the rest of my life I'll I'll be miserable then I'm not gonna be miserable now and I told my girlfriend at the time I said hey anything else you want for Christmas go buy whatever you want cause we're gonna enjoy this Christmas and we had the best Christmas ever and I just said I'm gonna turn it over to my lawyer I'm gonna keep on working I'm gonna keep on helping guys I'm gonna keep on doing my thing and I just kept doing the next right thing and as this process went through you know um eventually you know we sent them information they asked for I got certified

2:06:38lead wise in every way they wanted and um eventually I didn't hear from them for like I don't know it was like like a year and um during that time I had started

A new business

2:06:48another business I said you know what this Windows Windows maybe it's not for me I mean I'm not I'm not gonna let test every one of these windows I'm not gonna do this a guy who worked for me had been in another business a roofing industry and um came to me and he's like man you need to start selling roofs I'm like I don't know man I don't wanna do that the guy who got me in the window business said never do that he said man I'm telling you you need to get in it I got in it and um and um let me tell you I got into roofing business and I was retired within 10 years I never paid the EPA one dollar they never came after me for a dollar after sending me a letter for $13 million they never came after me for a dollar and the only reason I ever got into roofing was because of that letter from the EPA and that got me retired 10 years later so I would be be still employed

2:07:38doing something right now if it was not for that and so I would tell you that you know I was looking at first degree burglary okay 15 years of life and and and

The best thing that ever happened

2:07:48if you had told me in that jail cell that was the best thing that ever happened to me I'd say you're a liar no way I wouldn't be free today I wouldn't have 19 years without that they did for me what I could not do for myself would you stop me I got that letter for $13 million from the EPA I promise you if you told me that's the best thing ever happened to you I'd say man you are absolutely crazy ten years later I'm retired and so what I've Learned in sobriety is things that I perceive in my mind as being the worst thing ever that this is so bad this is no good I have no idea how god is gonna use this you know right now there's some things going on in my personal life that are just completely insane as we speak man I mean just but but you know what I'm doing the next right thing I'm trusting god doing the next right thing and letting things play out because what I've Learned over time is that

2:08:37what I perceive as being something terrible has LED to stuff being great many many times and I'm trusting on on god on this and and you know what

Trusting God

2:08:48even if he don't I'm still trusting god even if it doesn't turn out to be the best thing ever I'm trusting him because I would not have these 19 years without him so let me ask you a question because yeah I am aware and you know just because we stop using drugs and alcohol doesn't mean that life stops and you talk about trusting god what are what are some suggestions or things that you find and ways that you find the ability to do that cause it sounds good like trust in god okay alright well what is that like how do you what are some suggestions and that one how did you develop a what are some valuable suggestions on how you develop a that relationship well and how do you do that Frank well for me I'm just gonna speak on my behalf

2:09:37yeah because I I can't speak for everybody but the you know the first thing is is I had to realize that that that I was truly powerless and that my life is run by me was unmanageable

How to build a relationship with God

2:09:49it's not when I'm sober it ain't when I'm not drinking and drugging it's still my life is unmanageable is run by me I had to realize that that gave me the impetus to wanna say I I I need help you know god there's got there's gotta be something out there because I can't do it seeing other people at working for them made me believe that if it worked for them maybe it can work for me too you know what I mean and so for me I I would tell you I I have read you know I read the Bible of a good portion of it almost the entire Bible that for that that time before I got to the owl's nest um you know I had a I heard a speaker say one time he's a guy in Florida and um he said you know how do you grow in the likeness of your creator if you got no idea what your creator looks like see I'm not here to knock anybody's conception of god because whatever works for you man use it okay

2:10:39but you know there's something about learning to grow in the likeness of your creator you know he that guy said a lot of interesting things which is why aren't there more people with 20 30 40 years in the rooms should be tons of them because at a certain point if you're not growing in the likeness of your creator if and you don't know what your creator looks like where are you going you can jump all the hoops do all the things of the recovery but that relationship with god is gotta continue to grow how do you do that like I said it's just understanding that I'm totally powerless um understanding that the the you know you can put all the ingredients in like my veg I love vegetable soup you can put in all the my grandma made the best you can put in corn you can put in the beef stock you can put in the you can put in a you know all the vegetables tomatoes whatever you want you put anything in that vegetable soup beans whatever

2:11:28but if you ain't got no water you ain't got no soup god is is the water that makes the 12 steps soup you understand what I'm saying and so without god in the steps you if you do the steps without god you'll have a mental awakening you'll learn a lot about yourself in those steps but you ain't having no spiritual awakening and that's the key is having a spiritual awakening and and so you know it's it's it's praying it's it's meditating it's it's you know I I have to know when life hits me broadside like it does at times I have to know that that I've got I can get on my knees and pray to god help me god please please just help me and I gotta know he's there and that's that comes from experience you know when you've relied on god

Like a light switch

2:12:13enough times it's like a light switch I don't wonder when I click the light switch on if the lights cut on I know the lights cut on I've done it so many times I know it now you get a kid they get amazed when the light switch goes on they'll kick that light that light cuts on they think it's the coolest thing ever but you you you get grown you've done it so many times you know it works I've got on my knees and prayed to god so many times and it's worked and so I don't even question it anymore now with that being said you know I do inventory work to this day I just did some inventory work and on step 6 when I go in there and I'm asking god to remove character defects fear from me that I got that I've had since I was a child like you're talking about those formative years all these fears we pick up when we're child we put on a set of glasses

Step six and perception

2:12:56and and we walk through life with these set of glasses on and and the thing is is we're still looking at things like we're a child and don't realize it so the same fear I had when I was six 7 years old is the same fear I got today and I'm still look perceiving the world the same way and so I've got to be able to you know do I truly believe that god in step six in that hour with god do I truly believe that he can take it it takes me meditating even to this day to really believe that he can take it from me and am I willing to give it to him and um you know for me those are the things that that that have helped me really grow with god you know thank you for sharing that um one thing and I I think it's interesting cause I've kind of witnessed and if you don't want to talk about it that's fine but

2:13:46um your relationship with your children maybe you could speak on that you know my oldest daughter we we she knew that I loved her because I was young and still did stuff with her

His daughters

2:13:58um she knew that she she remembered times that I was there and so my relationship with her has not been as difficult you know she's 37 and so we don't see each other all the time but we do talk and something good is going on with her life she'll call me and tell me about it and I was able to make amends to her you know in in her teen late teen years and and um you know so so it's a good relationship with her and um my youngest daughter um you know I I missed a lot of time with her and and so we started getting a relationship going back together and um you know in early in my sobriety and it was rough going at first and um but things started getting better and better and we took trips I remember going to Chicago with her and and my wife and my my my my son and we stayed at a beautiful hotel and we did everything

2:14:45man we went to go see the Cubs and it was I mean we we we had a blast I went to go see theater shows and and um and I got back back from that trip and at this time my daughter was like 16 and um

A rift with his youngest

2:14:59she was going through what I didn't know was some depression and anxiety she was dealing with that and we went to church and the pastor asked is would anybody want a prayer and she's like hmm me and everybody kind of chuckled just you know thinking it was she was just joking around and he's like okay well we'll pray for you and so my my um her mother got upset about that because my daughter was upset and so she got upset and she called the pastor of my church and just dug into him just can't believe you would do that to her put her on the spot like that and just really dug into her and and so the pastor called me two weeks later he's like how's you how's Madison doing I was like what are you talking about he's like um you haven't heard I was like nah he's like well the mother she called me and just was like just really upset I was like really she no she never even told me

2:15:48I was like I can't believe she didn't call me first and so but you know she told me about what she was going through so I called the mother and I said hey um you know I heard what's going on with her whatever it costs to get that to go to you know to speak to somebody about I wanna pay for that I wanna help in any way that I can and she um and she just became incredulous saying you know your pastor should have never done that and I was like you know what I meant really he wasn't trying to do that I I promise you she she was taking it that way but that wasn't how his intent and so eventually it gets to the point where where um she's like gets so upset with me she's like I never wanna speak to you again and I thought no problem no problem so um she got out on me well because of what my daughter was going through and my daughter being so close to her slowly but surely our relationship started to detach and at 18 years of age she graduated

2:16:35high school and I didn't speak to her again for another seven years it wasn't because I didn't call I called I sent birthday presents Christmas presents every year and um no sound I'm talking zero did not talk to me at all and um you know my mom would tell me she's in college she's doing well this that and the other and um so eventually um you know you pray and and and I can tell you when you pray for something for seven years and you don't see any sign of it you're not thinking there's anything gonna happen on this but this past Christmas my mom comes to me and she said Frank I wanna tell you something um

A text from his daughter

2:17:07Madison accepted Christ I saw her at Christmas and she told me she accepted Christ and I believe she's serious and I thought man I'm so happy to hear that you know what I've been praying for her and all my kids I said if if I never see her a day on earth I'll see her again in heaven and um and so um fast forward four months later I'm I pray before we go to church one morning and I'm like god please just make that relationship be whatever you would have it be I go to church come back I get a text hey dad from there comes a conversation from there we talk every single day see addicts and alcoholics suffer from depression and anxiety same thing said we medicated with drugs and alcohol she just doesn't have the allergy she's not she's not one of us and so the same things that apply to us and help us help her and so her relationship with god and

2:17:56tools that I found in the program I can tell her and it helps her and and the funniest thing is one day she's telling me she's just going on and on about how much I'm helping her and and the whole time I'm thinking you think I'm helping you you're helping me through what I'm going through you know and it's just been the most amazing thing and I can tell you man the relationship I have with my daughter today

Seven years and a restored bond

2:18:21I don't even think about those seven years that I did because it is so good now and we're talk every single day and the bond we have is so great so much better than anything we had prior though I don't even think about those seven years man and so I have no idea how God's working things out I you know just cause it my prayer ain't answered the minute I want it does not mean it ain't working you know I had a man tell me before god works to the good all things for those who who who love him that are called according to his purpose and he said if it ain't good it ain't done and so I I you know right now I'm going through some things in life in my personal life but I believe all wholeheartedly if it ain't good it ain't done and so that's what I believe man that's so powerful and you know what's cool is kind of getting a front row seat to all of this stuff like it's not

2:19:12this ain't made up this ain't something that I heard about or read in a book this is something that I watched and have seen um maybe you can speak to because I know that recovery for you has evolved right you know and and I think it's important for somebody that's you know with the kind of time at 19 years cause there are periods and blocks of window where where we'll lose people or they'll have returns to use the five to 10 you know what I mean and so I all I think it's you know somebody who has the experience of 19 years to to be sober um one what does your recovery look like today like what are some of the the things that that you've done or that you can recommend and two what are like some of the challenges

2:19:59that you're faced with right cause sometimes at 19 years we can probably get there's probably even been seasons where yeah I know all that or you know there's ego that may be involved or or whatever but maybe you could just speak on

How his recovery has evolved

2:20:13on some of those things of how your recovery's evolved as well as challenges that you've you've faced that you know 19 years sober that it just all ain't perfect yeah I um you know for me it's it's the biggest thing is always having had set meetings that I go to that I attend um because it makes me accountable if I'm just hitting any meeting at any time I'm never really accountable and so for me it's it's it's going to to set meetings to this day I now my meetings have changed at times where I go but I've got a set schedule of meetings that I hit I hit a meeting on Monday I hit a meeting I I do a book study at my house or another location on Wednesdays on Thursday I started a meeting um God's recovery where we we talk about Jesus Christ and

Set meetings, the woods and church

2:21:03and the 12 steps of recovery and how they blend in together um on Friday I go to a meeting out in the woods it's in the middle of nowhere quartzville South Carolina shout out yeah but it actually is well it's in the middle of no people come there to speak they think is this really in the woods cause I mean it's it's in in the national forest there but it's um but you know it's well attended and because it's such a good meeting and then I attend church on Sunday and um you know for me you know the book says the book says um not all of us join religious bodies but most of us favor such memberships again I'm not here to push anything I'm just telling you what worked for them and works for me um you know the combination of those things have been a powerful influence on me and um you know so I I definitely believe in hitting set meetings

2:21:51I believe in um you know praying meditating um you know I'm not always the greatest at the meditation my prayers are a lot better there's times I get into periods where I do a lot of meditation there's times when I got periods where I don't do a lot of meditation um but um you know being doing inventory there's a guy named Paul who used to work at the Owl's Nest a lot of tattoos you know exactly who I'm talking about Paul said something to me when I picked up when I went to um when I commenced the Owl's Nest I'm 120 days or so been there four months at the Owl's Nest and I'm commencing and the guy named Ed Hightower is coming to speak I believe right Earl high tower Earl Earl high tower that's right Earl high tower big old national prominent speaker is coming to speak and there's probably three or four hundred people at this commencement and you know and it's

2:22:39really to see Earl is who they're there for but but it's I'm commencing that night and it's a big old thing and everybody's clapping cause you know it's commencement and commencement means to begin right like like like you just practice here now it's time to really get in the game right and not everybody makes it through practice that's why you know it's something to make it through you know a a recovery program you know but but not everybody makes it through practice so I've made it through and and I go to the bathroom and this Paul guy Paul is walking out as I'm walking in he says he turns around he says man Frank

To thine own self be true

2:23:08he says do you know what it says on the one back of one year medallion I said no he said to thy own self be true he said you ain't gotta be true to everybody but you gotta be true to yourself hmm if I've got something that is bugging me that is bothering me I've gotta get it out you know there's 10th step items that I can deal with on a daily basis and there's stuff that drags on from a tenth step you know what I mean and I need to get honest with somebody about that I gotta have a sponsor or a network of friends that I can get honest about that and then I gotta be willing to to to get down and do inventory work on that if it needs to be whether it be going back and do just writing something out and taking a look at it and seeing hey what's really the deal here I really your problem is fear Frank it ain't that you're so mad at this guy cause he didn't pay you on this job

2:23:58really your fear is you're not gonna have enough money and if you don't have enough money nobody's gonna like you and nobody's gonna love you that's really why you're so upset about this right or it could be that I need to go back and do a four

Fear of being alone

2:24:08step and and and and take a look at my fear of being alone I meant you you know you grew up alone your mom was a single mother you were at the house all by yourself all the time and so you you you want somebody there I'm I'm a I'm really a loner but I'm a loner who likes to be with somebody yeah I'm a loner who likes to be with somebody I'm a loner but I want somebody there I just the presence there is something right and and I'm definitely afraid of being alone and and you know these are things that I've had a chance to take a look at over the course of time doing inventory work and um you know it's it's persistently consistently working the program persistently consistently working the program and seeking god and seeking god you know the one thing that I've there's many things that I that I've Learned but one thing that I uh

2:24:59I have actually really Learned from you is see you're vocal right like you don't walk around like you walk on water like

Pick up the phone

2:25:08if there's something going on with you like you pick up the phone you know what I'm saying like it don't matter and to my detriment no I I but so to the point I don't know it was probably three weeks ago I'm I'm calling you cause I'm like hey man I got some I'm hot like I am hot and uh you know cause I don't think I have another one in me you know what I mean like I really there's some people that talk about that you know this last one when you wake up from being dead buddy I mean we need to I was there yeah you were there I wasn't I was there I saw you 10 minutes afterwards yeah coming out the hospital you know what I mean so um I just you know being being vocal and and you know not with everybody but you know we have a relationship so like you know there's some of us like Jonathan and and you and of course people like Lida you can pick up the phone

2:25:59and it don't matter what it is there's no judgment and one they're gonna hear you're gonna listen and then you're gonna get some truth right you're gonna get some truth that can kind of help with the shift of perspective and perception and and to to have that right man it's it's uh it's freaking priceless you know the the key is having friends that will listen to you tell you the truth and then not be judgmental if you don't listen to their suggestion you know because that that happens I mean sometimes you gotta hit your head enough times before you finally start listening to to what people are saying you know what what what I found is that god keeps you if you if if you don't work this program when things are good you're not gonna work it when it ain't good

2:26:50I'll tell you that right now I've seen that in 19 years the one thing I can tell you absolutely is if you don't work it when it's the program when it's good you ain't gonna work it when it ain't good okay so that's why you gotta persistently do it and when you're persistently working this program you can make mistakes and you can continue to bang your head and and

God will keep you sober

2:27:08and this programming god will keep you sober to the point where you've had enough and you've got sick of yourself that you honestly want to do something about it or really to truly give it to god and that's an amazing thing because you know I've been going through a you know like I said some stuff for the last almost three years it's been going on and it's been it's been a you know it's um it's been challenging at times but god has kept me sober through it and I don't know how things are gonna work out but I do know that that I'm gonna do the next right thing I'm gonna wake up I'm gonna Trust God I'm gonna do the next right thing and I'm gonna let things play out so kind of as we kind of wind down I you know I definitely wanna hear um your insight

2:27:56because the reason kind of why we we started this is you know maybe there's somebody out here this is Saturday right and Saturday is you know kind of a continuation from a Friday and uh you know they may get a hold of this on a Sunday right and uh everything's gone but they got a phone and uh you're gonna pop up and are they're gonna hear our voice

A message for the newcomer

2:28:21what are some things that you would would share insight suggestions for somebody who 1 is considering a change in in direction or 2 new new early on in recovery you know the biggest thing I want to get across is that you know no matter how bad your situation is and I don't care how bad it is mine was bad fifteen years of life can't stop using no matter what looking at staring death in the eye and look at what god has done in my life I'm just one example I know hundreds if not thousands of examples just like mine you know no matter how far down you think you've gone down the scale no matter how hard it seems to stay sober that next day it's worth it and if it wasn't

2:29:11I'd be getting high right now you know I mean it is so worth it there's a life the best years of your life are ahead of you I don't care if you're you're you're you're 15 or you're 100 the best years of your life are in front of you not behind you you know and so come on in join the bunch get in here with the rest of us you know when I was getting high and drunk I was hanging around with nothing but addicts and alcoholics guess what I'm sober I'm hanging around with nothing but addicts and alcoholics the same people except 1,000% better and so you know come on in join in with us and and and grab a hold of the solution of this program the results will keep you coming back I promise you Frank I love you man thank you love you too Nathan love you brother