From Addiction to Fatherhood: The Recovery Nobody Talks About

Auto-generated from the episode audio and lightly formatted. It may contain errors.

Northwest Ohio roots and a family that does not talk about feelings

00:10Gang, gang. Ugh. I hate when y'all talk like that. Chad Burmeister. It's good to see you, buddy. Thank you, my friend. So in true fashion, um, do me a favor. Let our audience know how we got here. Where are you from? What it was like growing up. Okay. I, uh, I am from Northwest Ohio. Uh, we kicked around, uh, quite a bit between this like 30-mile radius, uh, between Sandusky, Ohio, to, uh, this really white bread, uh, hillbilly town of Bellevue, Ohio, and some time in Castalia, Ohio. And, uh, you know, I'd love to, uh, paint a picture of some unique childhood, but, uh, my family would be w- what I would call like, uh, pretty consistent with modern America. Uh, we don't talk about feelings. We don't deal with issues. We judge one another. Uh, and, uh, you know, we roll on. But, uh, you know, I had a good

01:27I have a, I have a good family. And, uh, my past and present has taught me that, uh, they're always doing the best they can. Hmm. So both parents in the picture, mom and dad, or? Not together, but yeah, yeah. Uh- Mm.

Divorce and an every-other-weekend childhood

01:47I was, uh, an every other weekend guy at my dad's. Mm-hmm. And most of the time with my mother's. I did live a couple years with my dad when I was like 14. Okay. Were they ever together as you were growing up that you recall, or? Yeah. Yeah, when I was very young, uh, they It's like, uh, the Christmas escapade. They, uh, divorced a couple days after Christmas, and, uh, it was quite the unsightly scene, my father coming to watch us open presents and then, uh, my mother making him leave. Can you recall what that experience was like or how that felt? You know, uh, I remember most things in moments. Uh, not necessarily feelings or details, but, uh, I do remember standing outside as my dad pulled away in his truck, uh, and my, asking my mother f- what if I wanted to live with him? And she saying, "Well, you better fucking go." Hmm. Uh, I do remember that. And then, uh, we had, uh, this big beautiful old Victorian house at the time that my father had just spent a few years remodeling. And, uh, shortly after, you know, we, my mother couldn't afford that home. Mm-hmm. Uh, and we moved. We got, uh

03:21Moving was a regular experience every 6 months to every 2 years.

The trailer park and constant moving

03:28Uh, but we ended up in a trailer park. Imagine that. How old were you? Maybe about 8, 9. But, uh, you know, stereotypical trailer trash type thing. But, uh, as a kid, a trailer park, uh, is access to a gang of other kids, so, uh, I don't ever remember not liking it there. I always, uh I never struggled to have friends. Mm-hmm. Uh, I've always been a guy that always has a close couple friends, not a, not a l- a huge assortment of friends. I don't, uh, connect well with groups, more individuals. Yeah. Looking back on, you know, the constantly relocating, what type of impact do you think that had on you? Well, it was a, a pattern of behavior that continued into my adult life, so there was some sort of impact there. Uh, no matter how strange things are, when they become continual, uh, there's a sense of normalcy in it. So to me, loading up a U-Haul and unloading a U-Haul, uh, is just a, a regular part. It's like a, a game of Tetris to me. Yeah. So. So you get to the trailer park at 9. Did you stay there f- I guess for- For a while. Mm.

Playing with fire: run, then lie

05:02Uh, that was the first time I ever got in trouble living there. Tell me about that. Imagine this. Uh, I liked to, I used to like to play with fire. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and, uh, it was 2 other guys and myself. There was an apple orchards out, you know, maybe a football field behind the trailer park. Mm-hmm. And, uh, it was a pretty regular occurrence. We'd go out there with a box of matches and set little fires and stomp them out. But then, uh, one day we couldn't stomp it out. And, uh, speaking of patterns of behavior that would continue into my adulthood, when, uh, when the fire got out of control, my very first instinct, uh, even as a little child, was to run. Run. Run. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then when confronted by overwhelming truth, my second instinct-Lie Lie. Yes. Yeah, yeah. That, uh, that's a pattern that will be con- is continual throughout most of my life. So did you burn the apple orchard down? Like, tell me about this fire, man. What was- I mean, uh, lot of smoke, little fire. But, uh, they had fire department got out there. Uh, and a few years later, uh, you know, you can't stop, uh, growth, and so, uh, some big company would come and tear it all down and build a warehouse anyway. So it's, it's not like we destroyed our community. Yeah. But, uh, uh, the other kids, uh, told on me. I was the, the ringleader of the fire starters, of course. And, uh, I remember spending the summer in my home. I had stole my sister's CDs, and I sat there and listened to Warrant, S- "Cherry Pie"- Yes. specifically, and, uh, Sir Mix-A-Lot. Uh- quite the, the oddball of fucking music. Yeah, man. But, uh, that was, that's what I remember most about that whole experience. They did take me to the fire department. The guy lectured me. And, uh, even at a young age, I, I could not hear when I was spoke to from folks of authority. Hmm. I was present. Uh, I had all the attributes to take in what they were saying, but something inside of me always said, "Well, fuck that guy." You would just shut down, you think? Yeah, yeah. Not in, like, a, a dismissive way, but in an internalizing way where there's 2 thoughts going on, to look concerned on the outside and to be very apathetic on the inside. Hmm. I get that. Sure.

High school and the first time he got high

07:52So what was high school like? When'd you start using? Was kind of a late bloomer, uh, with the substances. Uh, um, in high school is when I developed this keen sense to compare. And, uh, we were never, like, poor poor, uh, but, uh, my mother had remarried, and we had moved out to fucking bumfuck Egypt. And, uh, the school that I went to was a upper middle class school, so, uh, I ended up just hanging out with all Black people. Mm-hmm. And then, uh, I think I was about 16. Uh, I mean, of course I had drank a few times. Mm-hmm. Uh, steal some wine coolers. My dad's an avid beer drinker. Uh, but, uh, maybe because I always never wanted to be like my father was why other substances were so appealing to me. But, uh, I think I was 16 the first time I smoked pot. And, uh, you know, you can hear it in 12-step rooms or anybody that wants to be really honest that, uh, that first time that I was really intoxicated was the closest thing I'd ever had to a spiritual experience. Hmm. It's, uh, the first time the comparisons, that, uh, duality that's always been inside of me- Mm-hmm

09:26uh, kinda just crept away. Uh, music was sharper. Colors were brighter. Uh, movies were funnier. Mm-hmm. Life felt like it had meaning. When you met your stepfather for the first time and through that period, do you 'Cause you say you, you see moments, not feelings, but was that, was that uncomfortable, or was it comfortable?

His stepfather Jimmy

09:54Did you like your stepfather? And what was you leaving the trailer park like? That had to have some type of emotional impact, and what was that like? That's a good question. Uh, I, my stepfather, uh, had married a woman prior to my mother, and she had a brain aneurysm. And, uh, the woman that she had married was actually the mother of my sister's best friend. So it was- Hmm all, like, close-in network. Mm-hmm. Uh, but my stepfather was a very fun man- Mm-hmm uh, when they first got married. Uh, his brothers, it's a weird situation, and I still don't com- completely understand it, but his brothers were Black, and he looked like, uh, he looked like Mario, like from Mario and Luigi. Mm-hmm. He even had the mustache. And, uh, he, uh, played basketball a lot, which, uh, so did I. Uh, we would go to the park often. And he was fun. He was the opposite of my father. Mm-hmm. Not that my father's not cool, but my father is, uh, a drinker and a partier. Like, even when I would go there, the, there was a, a, a very strict routine. He'd pick me up Friday from school. We'd go to, uh, Video Picks and we'd rent 8 movies, and then he'd go out, and I would be in front of the TV with movies and video games. But, uh, Jimmy was a good man, but, uh, I was a difficult child. In what ways? In any and every way. I wasn't, like, a complete asshole child, but, uh, I never completed anything perfectly, and, uh, Jim had that expectation with little things, uh, mowing the lawn, cleaning the room, uh, keeping up with chores, grades, things like that. And, uh, I had enough, uh, knowledge to, like, create controversy inside the house between him and my mother. Hmm. So eventually he just stopped.

Before and after Jamie died

12:10Were you happy as a kid? There's, like, 2 sides to that. There's before Jamie, my brother, died, and then after Jamie, my brother, died. So that situation changed, uh, it changed everyone in my family's lives. Hmm. And that's, uh That day I remember more than almost any other day, which, uh, it seems almost silly, but I remember more about that day than the day any of my 3 children were born. Hmm. Uh, it's, I guess it's a function somewhat of, like, PTSD, but it's very vivid visual memories- Hmm that, uh I've always been a messy guy. Uh, somebody once told me that geniuses were messy, so- once I heard that, I was okay with being messy. Yeah. There you go. So you, your brother- He was actually- were you close? Well, he was actually my nephew. Okay. My mother, uh, my oldest sister, Amy, uh, was, uh, a very young woman and had this child, and, uh, it was never, like, an agreed-upon thing, which adds a, a layer of, uh, like, turmoil inside the whole event because, uh, Jamie was supposed to just live with us temporarily- Mm-hmm

13:33while she kinda got her life together. But yeah, we were close. As close as, uh, an 11-year-old can be to, uh, a one-and-a-half-year-old child. Hmm. You know? Uh, everything's cute for a child that age. So he came, he was introduced to your life at 11. Well, 10. 10. And, uh, so I guess high school, did you get in any trouble in high school? No, not any, like, major trouble. Like, you know, ditching class. Uh, we would sneak out and go out to lunch and, uh, you know, smoke joints and shit like that. Uh, one time the assistant principal sat in a lawn chair in my parking spot.

Dropping out, the GED and marijuana as personality

14:20But, uh, I dropped out when I was 16. Hmm. Why do you think you did that? It's just that innate need to rage against the machine. Uh, I hate being told where to be and how to be. And, uh, I never really gave a lot of effort. My, uh My mother allowed me to. It wasn't, uh And I think she just got sick of fighting with me, 'cause I was so persistent about it. Uh, and, and it wasn't that the work was too difficult. It's just, uh, you know, one of these words you don't like, but I was aloof. Mm-hmm. Never really putting forth much effort. Uh, I always hated that feeling of not being prepared, and I was never prepared, uh, which would cause me to shut down. And when I started smoking pot, it wasn't, like, just a, a thing I did. It became me. Mm-hmm. Like, it became my personality, like, very quickly. Yeah. How old were you when you, when you, if you could nail it down, where you, smoking pot was a consistent thing? 17. 17. So you're out of school for a year already. Yeah. I, uh, I got the GED the same, uh, within 4 months of dropping out. Mm-hmm. Uh, the work was never the issue. It was just the effort. And, uh, getting the GED kinda felt like a fuck you to everybody. So it was my idea, so of course it was a good idea. Mm-hmm. And, uh, my mother owned this, like, home health companyAnd, uh, she would, like, provide in-home service to mentally handicapped people, and she got me a job working with the Carr family. And, uh, I would just go over there and hang out with these 3 handicapped guys. And, uh, and they were like little kids more than anything else, and we would take them to the park, and they would sit over there and drool and chant to themselves, and I would play basketball and

16:33Yeah, it's- So you liked to play sports then. You played basketball. That was kinda your thing. Oh, yeah. Was an outlet. Yeah. How old were you when your brother died? 11. You were 11 when that happened? Mm-hmm. I didn't even know that till recently. Uh, all the time had kinda blurred together, but, uh, I, I just recently, within the last couple weeks, talked to my mother about her experience with that day. Mm. And, uh, and she had a, a very similar experience where, uh, very vividly remembering small little details about the day and, uh, playing them back and forth. You can't help but think, like, "If I had just done this one little thing different" Like, uh, he would come outside with me every day. That is nothing new, and I'm 11. It's not like I'm the most observant human being at that age. Mm-hmm. Uh, and the kid didn't even like the pool, so, uh, yeah.

The day Jamie died

17:37How'd he die? Climbed in the pool, drowned. And the pool was not well-manicured. It wasn't So the water was, like, kinda green. Mm-hmm. And that's when life changed for you. You know, my mother went into a very deep depression, bathrobes in bed for probably 3 or 4 years after that. Mm-hmm. Uh, my stepfather was on the road a lot. My dad, uh, my dad's pretty consistent, but, uh, he's also You know, he likes to drink a lot, so- Mm-hmm he, uh, he's a strap your boots type of kind of guy and just move forward no matter what. So how do you think that, like, looking back on it, affected you? Well, it, it affected everything. Uh, I didn't know that till probably within the last 4 or 5 years, but, uh, it affected my ability to communicate with people that I love. Uh, it affected, uh, with my ability to unpack and deal with issues, uh, as they're happening. It normalized not doing any of those things. And, uh, it did bring my sister and I somewhat closer together under this, like, false ruse of this idea of, "Fuck my mother. She screwed us both over." Mm-hmm. Uh, and again, that conversation I had with my mother recently, like, the, the depth of her depression, uh, where I'm at now as, like, this healed man, uh, my heart really breaks for her just, you know, talking about just sitting in her room playing with a gun that was given to her for Christmas, knowing that, uh, she can't take her life, but she really wants to. Mm. That's heavy. Mm-hmm. So I guess you developed a pattern of just avoidance, it sounds like. Avoidance, yes. And not dealing with stuff. Ever. Do you have any relationships, meaningful relationships or anything during high school that you can recall? I had a best friend, Rory McLean. Mm-hmm. Uh, I've always, uh, been really close with, uh, pretty intelligent people, and he was, like, the first guy

20:07I never thought of myself as smart. Uh, it seems to be a sentiment that most people think I am. I've never thought that of myself. Mm-hmm. Uh, but, uh, you know, he, uh

The first pain pill

20:21I broke my ankle on my 18th birthday, and that's the first time I ever did a pain pill. Mm. And that was, uh, my second what I would call spiritual experience. And it- it happened on the Ohio Turnpike, and it was a combination of, uh, Percocet fives and, uh, a joint, and it was like, "Fuck, I wanna feel like this all the time." Yeah. All the time. But, uh, it didn't grip me like that right away like it will later. Mm-hmm. But that memory was stored, that seed was planted. That's like that, that, that long burn right there. So your introduction, prior to this, you s- you smoke pot. That's kinda your thing. You may drink a little bit. But your introduction to opiates came from an injury- Mm-hmm

21:16uh, when you broke your ankle. Yeah. So f- naturally, I mean, we smoke pot. I mean, I get that, right? Yeah. And you take this Perc five and you're like, "Wow." Oh, it was perfect. Okay. It was, like, perfect. And, uh, I would meet my kids' mother maybe 3 or 4 months after that, or shortly after I got out of the c- uh, cast. And, uh, she was an absolute train wreck mess. Uh- What were you doing? As little as possible. Uh, my mother and stepfather would do this thing where they're, like, separated, they're together, they're separated together. But, uh, I just stayed in the house no matter who was there. Yeah. I had this, like, side little, like, second addition to the house that was, like, isolated and, uh, they would, uh

22:14You know, every few months they would get on me about keeping a job, which I never would or never could. Uh, I've always been a terrific worker. I always had a hard time showing up. Always had a hard time showing up. Why do you think that was? Was it the pot? Was it just lack of motivation? Combination of all things you just said. Uh, I just didn't really care. Hmm. I mean, I, I really didn't have to provide for myself, uh, in the realest sense of the world. Well, all I wanted, uh, was to have enough money to, to buy soda and weed. Were you happy? That's a difficult question. It, there were interval times of happiness, sure. Uh, but, uh, I've always just felt confused most of my life, like I'm, I'm searching for this undeniable truth that's somewhere out there floating 12 inches in front of me and I just can't quite grab it. Hmm. I get that, man. So you get the cast off, right? So you mentioned you have children apparently. So h- how did this come to be?

Meeting Melissa and becoming a father

23:23Where, you said you met the mother of your- Well, I met Melissa and- Where at? What was going on? She was, uh, a very A friend of mine, and I say that with quotations, uh, it was his girlfriend, and they didn't work out and then, uh, you know, we started fucking. And then, uh, my family hated her, which made me love her even more. And, uh, she got pregnant. Uh, she had a miscarriage, then got pregnant again, like, immediately. Hmm. Uh, my dad got me a job at his factory, which, uh, as weird as it sounds, at, like, 18 was, like, the thought that I had arrived. I have a UAW job. Nobody can tell me nothing now. Uh, if I struggle with attendance, the union's gonna be there to protect me. Mm-hmm. Uh, Quincy was born. Uh, yeah, that, uh

24:34I always wanted to be a good dad, you know, like immediate. Uh, and I wasn't for a long time. I did a lot of good dad things, but what I- Did it, did, when Quincy was born, did it change your life? Like, did- I would've told you it did. Yeah? But none of my behaviors changed. None of my outlook on life changed. Uh, it was like this movie sentiment, uh, that I was trying to, like, convey, but there was no action. There was no realistic- Hmm uh, work there. The feeling was there, the actions weren't. I loved him at that time as best that I could. I mean, uh, I'm a self-absorbed, selfish, skinny little prick at this point in my life. Tell me more about that. Paint the picture. I mean, uh, I never could comprehend the ripple effect of behavior. Uh, Melissa, myself, Quincy all lived with my sister Amy. Uh, I mean, you wanna talk about, like, tragedy after tragedy. Uh, my sister is just a fucking wrecking ball of life and, and most of it's not even her own fault, and I just, like, latched on because it was the easiest path through life. So completely taken advantage.And, uh, wouldn't keep jobs, wouldn't, uh, help out around the house, uh, was, uh, not a good boyfriend, was not, like, a good father other than, uh

26:13I'm not a good with the babies. I never was. And when I can roughhouse with the little fuckers, I'm excellent. Yeah. But, uh, like holding and coddling and feeding and diaper changing, uh, not my strongest attributes. And I, uh, had started to dabble with psychedelics at the time, uh, which, uh, was, uh, you know, I loved those for a long time. Mm-hmm. And, uh, you could not tell me that, uh, there was any harm in any of that- Mm at the time. What do you think about that now, looking back? I mean, anything in the right framework, I think, is probably acceptable. But the fact that the substances and the lifestyle and the getting and obtaining and, uh, hanging around was the most important of part of my life. It was my personality. Mm-hmm. Uh, it's, uh, it's not conducive to a good home life. Yeah. Especially when you're 20. Can't nobody tell you anything when you're 18 to 20-something. Like, uh, I don't know anything, and I'm convinced I know everything. I'm convinced I see truth and, uh, you know, I couldn't s- tell you the day from the night now that I look back at it. So you get

27:29You're 20 now. You, you have a k- are opiates in the picture, too? Just psychedelics and weed? Yeah. Yeah. A little bit of cocaine. Um- Yeah, my guy. Yeah, yeah. My, uh, kids' mother's father is the f- person that introduced me to cocaine. They were, uh, Wis- or what is it, wild turkey drinkers. Mm-hmm. Uh, we were over there hanging out at their little shitty cottage thing, and they were like And he told me to go take their daugh- his daughter home and come back, and I didn't know what he wanted. And, uh, you know, the first time I did cocaine, it's probably my third spiritual experience. I concur. Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah. So did you pick up a cocaine habit after that or what? No. No. Most of my life, I could pick up and put substances down- Mm

28:23without much issue. Except the pot. The pot is a regular, every day, all day thing. Mm-hmm. Uh, no matter what. Yeah. So when did things When did you get, and how did you get introduced to, uh, the opiates? It would be a steady burn. Uh, Melissa and I would, uh, have my daughter, Olivia, and then my daughter, Patience. Mm-hmm. And then the levee started cracking then. We had this shitty little diner around the corner from us. Uh, it's, uh I don't even remember the name of it, but this diner was open specifically to serve folks that worked night shift, so they had a liquor license. Mm. And, uh, my children's mother would go there at, like, 8:00 in the morning. And, uh, you've been around, so you know the, like, different types of drinkers. Mm-hmm. Like, uh, you know, the touchy-feely kind, uh, the John Wayne kind, the, the Joe Cool kind, uh, and she was definitely the John Wayne type. And, uh, the fights were outrageous.

The night his behavior scared him

29:36And one of the most, uh, despicable things I ever, I ever, I've ever done is, uh, you know, I put my hands on her, uh, to, you know, not to, like, mince words, I choked the shit out of her. Mm. And, uh, she called the police. I, uh, much like the fire, I ran. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I ran straight to my dad's, and, uh, the detective called me at my dad's house. Uh, it's a time of home phones and phone books, so it wasn't hard. And, uh, I called a bail bondsman, turned myself in, got a lawyer. Uh, it eventually got dropped down, but, uh, it's the first time, uh, my behavior's ever really scared me. Mm-hmm. And I don't, uh

30:28I've never been an angry, malicious person. It's not in me. Uh, I'm not saying What I did was what I did. It's not her fault at all. But, uh, I could not keep myself in the position to continue to do things like that, so, uh, I left. Where'd you go? Uh, I have, I had a good friend, uh, his name's Thomas, but we call him DW. Makes no sense, but one day, uh, I called him dickweed, and it just stuck, so. Yeah. But, uh, we still Even my kids call him DW.

The custody battle and the drug-testing program

31:05Uh, then a custody battle ensued, and, uh, you know, for a long time, I would tell you, if both parents are willing, and both parents, uh, have the capability and but they can't be together, kids should be with their mother. Mm-hmm. Uh, but I fucking hated Melissa so much. And, uh, I was ready to fight. What made you hate her so much? Uh, 'cause she hated me. Why did she hate you? mean, uh, she was always a train wreck. Uh, abused as a child, neglected, uh, left behind. And, uh, I was a dick and, uh, I had put my hands on her. I had left her. I had threatened to take her children from her, you know? Hmm. Um, there wasn't much of me to like at that point. I mean, were you stable? Like, you're living with a friend. Like, what made the

32:16When you say there's a custody battle, what made you think Like, were you in a position where you were capable of taking care of, what, 3 children? Uh, well, 3, yes. But, uh, was I in the position? Not really. But was I gonna pretend like I was? Absolutely. Why? That's a good question. Uh- Just out of principle, just to fight? I, I It felt like the right thing to do. I'm a guy that always looks for a fight. Uh, I love the idea of overcoming and fighting for something with my back against a wall. It's when I do some of my best fucking work, and I wish it wasn't like that. That's a pattern of behavior that continues. I like that feeling. But, uh, she of course drug my name through the mud, told them I was, uh, biggest drug dealer ever, and, uh, it wasn't true. But, uh, she said it enough and screamed it loud enough that I got put on this program called Task, and my color was red. There was a phone number I had to call every day, and if your color comes up, you must be there by 4:00 to take a drug test. Hmm. She drug my name through the mud so much that the first time I went there to take the drug test

33:36Do you remember, uh, what was called a Whizzinator? Oh, yeah. Yeah. She told them I had one. Did you? No. Okay. Of course not. But I had to pull my pants down to my ankles and put my hands up and do a fucking 360 for these pricks. So you're caught in some kinda probation or something, I guess? Sorta. It's all voluntary, though. Okay. Why, why would you volunteer to do this? To spite her. Okay. And, and, well, I mean, now- Is it, was it it had something to do with the custody? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, we're going to court once a month at this point. DSS is involved. How old are the kids? Uh, Quincy's 4, Libby's two, and Patience is a newborn. Do you think that that had any impact on them? question. I don't think they remember much of this. Because while we were going through court, Quincy was with Melissa, Olivia was with my sister Amy, and Patience was with my mom. Hmm. Neither one of you had

34:49She had Quincy, sorta. Like- Yeah uh, eventually she threw some party and, uh, Quincy had to be removed. Uh- Okay so there was about 3 months where neither of us had either of them. Now, if you're in the Task program, I guess you're not able to smoke pot. No, but you know what doesn't come up in a drug test? What's that? Acid. So you got heavy on that, huh? 10 strips every, you know, 4 or 5 days. Uh, you would trip on Monday, skip on Tuesday, trip on Wednesday and so forth. Uh, I thought it was the funniest thing, literally tripping out of my head, sitting in the probation office, take- pissing in a cup like, "Fuck all you guys." I thought I, like, cracked the code. It's, uh, sick, but, uh- How many times do you think you've dropped acid in your life? I don't know. How many hairs you got on your head? Not many. Yeah, probably about equal. Enough to know I don't wanna do it ever again. Ha- That was, that, uh, was gonna be my next question. Do you think it has had any impact on the way you view things or any type of psychological impact? Maybe in a positive sense. Yeah. Like, uh, I don't necessarily, despite my, uh, profession, uh, I don't necessarily think in the right framework yet again that- Mm

36:15psychedelics are necessarily a bad thing. Yeah. Uh, I have would never want that level of intoxication again, that commitment to being outside of reality, but, uh, by and large, my experience with psychedelics was always positive. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I get that framework thing. So how long were you in the TAS program? 6 months. Yeah? Yeah. So what happened after that? 5 months into the custody battle, she just stopped going. She stopped showing up at court. Uh, and 6 months of clean drug tests. Uh, finally a public defender said, "You guys have, like, bent this kid over, and you have not a shred of evidence of any report that has been reported on him. At this point, this is wrong. Uh, and he should not have to submit another drug test unless new evidence comes to light." And the judge, with 6 months of clean drug tests, just completely agreed. Mm-hmm.

Awarded custody

37:21And, uh, I was awarded custody of all 3 of them, and, uh, my mother came to me and said, "Listen" Uh, Quincy was diagnosed autistic when he was about two and a half, 3 years old. Uh, and in a very caring voice, my mother said, "Listen, Quincy has his own issues." Liv didn't talk till she was damn near four, and as soon as she started talking, she never shut up, but- at the time, there was some concern that she might be delayed as well. Mm-hmm. So my mother offered to keep the baby, and, uh, I agreed. Mm. So, uh, I got cu- full custody of Quincy and Olivia, and at the time, my mother got temporary custody of Patience, and Melissa just disappeared. Okay. So what'd you do? We got, uh

38:13I was working, uh, at a manufacturing place. I mean, uh, this would be, like, what? 2007. You know, $18 an hour then was decent money. We had a nice house. Uh, I did the best I could with the kids, you know? Uh, shortly after, I got another long-term girlfriend. Mm-hmm. Uh, she was a big help with the kids. I probably would've lost them without her, if I'm just being frank.

Ecstasy, parties and a hydroponic closet

38:45Uh, I got into ecstasy then. Okay. That was, like, the next development of my partying, and, uh You know, I'm lucky nothing bad ever happened to my kids. I was, uh, not a responsible parent for a very long time, but, uh, we somehow made it. Looking back, what are some things you would've done differently? I mean, it's hard to look back and understand that the experience I have today, if I could im- if I could employ the experience and the knowledge and the wisdom that I have today, I would have done everything differently. Yeah. Uh, but much like I told you in the beginning, understanding about my parents doing the best they could with where they were at, so was I. Yeah. So that's

39:43It's kind of a whimsical question. I'll just leave that one go. So you're How old are you when you're dealing with the ecstasy stuff? 24, 25. Wow. Are you selling? Oh, yeah. Yeah? Making money. Oh, yeah, we were We had a great gig. It was, like, uh, 4 It was $400 for, uh, a jar, which was 100. Mm-hmm. And these stupid fucks from this town, like, 15 minutes away would pay $15 a pill. So we'd sell, like, 25 right the day we got the jar, which would pay for the jar, and then Yeah. And then- Yeah yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was all Yeah, we made some money. We did. Yeah. But, uh, we ate a ridiculous amount of, uh, ecstasy tablets and loved it. Yeah. If you were at my house, you would either eat ecstasy or leave. Yeah. Did anybody ever leave? No. No. No, no. It's, uh, it's when I started drinking. Oh, okay. Yeah. What was your favorite drink? At the time, I was kind of a little bitch, so it was like a Captain and Coke. There you go. But, uh, lots of beer pong. Yeah. You know, you get them yellow X tabs, you can drink all fucking night. Yeah. And, uh, that- So you're an overage frat guy at this point in your life. It's the first time I've ever, uh, had that group of friends to party like that. Mm-hmm. Uh, and it's pretty fucked up. Like 15, 20 people every night downstairs drinking and fucking chewing up E pills, and, uh, a little autistic boy and a, a little tiny girl sleeping upstairs. Mm. So

41:36So how long did that last? About 2 years. Yeah? Yeah. And then, uh, the people who owned the home that we were renting, they let it go into foreclosure, so we had to move. Uh, we moved into a town home where you couldn't throw parties like that. Mm. But this is how stupid I am. When we moved to the town home, I picked up a new hobby. Decided that I was gonna become an aficionado of growing weed. Okay. Nice. And I am like a dog with a bone when I'm interested with something. Yeah. Dude, I read reports, I watched videos. I turned this, uh, 12 cubic feet closet into a hydroponic fucking system. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. And, uh, you know what happened? What happened? What do you think happened? You set the house on fire. No, no, no, no. You get caught. Close. The police showed up. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Uh, turns out the people, the rental, uh, the people that rent out the properties could not rent the apartment behind us. Why? 'Cause of the smell. Yeah, the fucking smell. And, uh, s- you could call it fortuitous. Fuck, some p- people might even call it God, I guess. But, uh, the cops came 4 days after we harvested. Oh, wow. N- And the woman that I was dating, this is when I knew I loved her. I was at work, the cops came, and she did not crack. She did not let them come in the house. Nice. Yeah. So I, you know, came home, got all the lights out there, ripped all the Mylar down, cleaned up all the leaves, and, uh, never heard another peep about it. And that was the end of your grow. Yeah. Never did it again, but- But you got the harvest. I, and I was really good at it. Oh, so you had a good batch. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had, uh, grown this gigantic mother plant and, uh- Were you cloning off of it and all that? Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah, I was selling clones too. Yeah. Yeah. I was really tapped into the, like, uh, the hippie network a- uh, for quite a while. Yeah.

Perc 5s and the road to dependence

44:04That's when, uh, the pain pills started, though. Right after the growing? Yeah. Uh, the hippies loved me, so you know, they were, uh, giving me quarter to half pounds on consignment. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I met this old lady who loved to smoke pot but didn't have a lot of money. Mm-hmm. But she did have a monthly script of, uh, Perc 5s. And that seed that we talked about being planted all the way back when I broke my ankle was there. Mm-hmm. So once a month I'd give her a quarter of fucking weed and she'd give me 90 Perc 5s. Dude, you s- got a seal of a deal, didn't you? Mm-hmm. Huh? And for the longest time, for quite a while, uh, we probably sold 80 of them. Like, uh, when we moved, uh, to the town home, we did really well financially. Mm-hmm. It was probably the easiest part of my life financially. You know, we had barely any bills, and, uh, we just bought stupid shit, uh

45:03Yeah, man. Balling. Yeah. Balling status. Always had a, a pocket full of cash and, you know, it was, uh, probably the happiest, uh, the, the girl and I ever were. Mm-hmm. Uh, but you know, selling 80 became 70, 60, 50, 40, 30, to the point where it was like, "I can't buy them as cheap as I'm getting them. I might as well just keep them." Mm-hmm. And then we got a, another old man with a similar deal. And, uh- Now, did she go down this rabbit hole with you? Mm-hmm. Yeah. We would, uh, smoke weed and snort pills. How long do you think it took till you were, like, physically dependent? Couple years. Yeah? But we always had them. It wasn't till there was the one time I didn't have them that- Yeah

45:55I was at work, I was working at a hotel. And I called her and I was like, "I don't know what the fuck's going on with me. My eyes are watering. Uh, I can't stop sneezing. My stomach feels like, uh, fucking in knots. I'm fucking cold." And she's like, "Dude, you're fucking dope sick." She's like, "I feel the same wayWe need to fucking find something Not get off of it. No. We gotta find some. Uh-huh. So what happened? We found something. Mm. Yeah, yeah, pretty, uh Eventually, uh, the consignments with the hippie people started to fuck up, and I would have to pull money out of my paycheck to keep that going. Uh, then, uh, we had to go to, like, check into cash a couple times. Uh, and then the, the hippie people put it together, what we were doing. And, uh, they were good people. They did not approve of, uh, abusing pharmaceuticals, so they cut us off. So where'd you go from there? Uh, we moved. We ran. Where'd you run

47:11Why'd you have to run? Just felt like we had to. Things were getting hot? Did you rip some people off? No. Or you just had to get the- Just felt like it was time to go. We were in that hillbilly town, Bellevue. Mm-hmm. And, uh, we moved back to Sandusky. Mm-hmm. And, uh

Telling his family

47:37Well, that's the first time I ever told my family that I had a problem with pills. So you came to the realization that things have gotten serious. Mm-hmm. I'm probably 30, 31. Uh, my sister and my dad came over, and, uh, it's a, it's a absurd conversation, 'cause my, my sister, uh, who's always been a lot like my mother, honestly, uh, was like, "Listen, Jad, we, we're gonna help you through this. Okay? We- we'll get you to, we'll get you some treatment. There's all kinds of resources out here. And, uh, after treatment, we'll get you hooked up with, like, a therapist and get you some on- on some antidepressants." And I was like, "Antidepressants? I'm not putting that shit in my body." I still remember saying that stupid shit. Yeah. I'm over here snorting anything that has opioid in it- Yeah

48:45without a give a fuck. Yeah. But the And, and I'm arguing like I know what I'm talking about. Like, "We don't know anything about the brain. You wanna fuck with my brain chemistry? You get the fuck out of my house." Fuck with your brain. 10 strips of acid, ecstasy- Right, right sniffing pills. Right. Like, yeah, fuck with my brain, right? It's rich, isn't it? Yeah, it's great. I love it. Man after my own heart. So, uh- So you didn't respond well to the intervention, I take it. I did put some time together. Did you? What happened? How'd you do that? Uh, grit and bear it. I got a job at, uh, Whirlpool in Clyde, Ohio. Okay. On the assembly line, which

49:34Professionally, I have to be able to move. Yeah. You put me in one little place, and I'm a fucking ball of nerves. I'm a wreck. Mm-hmm. And, uh, uh, when I say time, I, I mean, like, 3 weeks. And, uh, I went and smoked some weed with the neighbor. Uh, and then I got on Indeed and, uh, applied for this sales gig, which was, like, uh, right around the corner from my house. Went there, was, like, 15 minutes early to the interview. Which I've always been a pretty punctual guy. Uh, I don't clock CP time that w- so- Except school Okay, that's- We're moving on. Yeah. Uh, but because I was early to the interview, they loved me. Mm. And, uh, uh, this was a job selling, uh

50:32At first it seemed super legit.

A boiler-room sales job and Opana

50:35Uh, binary options. Binary meaning 2 options, meaning like a play on the stock market. Mm-hmm. Uh, and there was 2 different departments, conversion and retention. And they liked the way I talked, so they immediately put me in the retention. So anybody that made an initial deposit, I would get on there and ask them to put more money on. They were essentially gambling on the stock market. Okay. And, uh, the guy sitting next to me You know, I firmly believe where I sit today, you cannot fake intention. Mm-hmm. Like, the universe, God, you fill in the blank there. Whatever makes you feel good about that will put in forth, in front of you, whatever you're really looking for. And, uh, the guy sitting next to me, he, uh, he not only liked to party like me, uh, he knew about substances that I hadn't even heard of, uh, as far as pain pills go. Uh, my like third day on the job I get introduced to Opana. Oh. And I could always put some words together pretty well, and sound very, uh, sincere and genuine. Sh- Snort that pill and it's off to the races. I became number one salesman in like a week. Opana 80s, Opana 60s. Well, they only, they only went up to 40s. Okay. Yeah. There were, there were instant release 10s, which would come down later, uh, 20s and 40s. And, uh, they were like a $1.50 a milligram, unless you drove to Elyria. Always been pretty resourceful. Yeah. Uh, never like a big baller. That, i- in my head, these grandiose idea, that's who I was. But I could always find a deal. Yeah. Um, I was good like that, so. But, uh, pretty quick I figured out that this job was kind of a scam. Mm. But I mean, $20 an hour to me at the time was a lot of money. Yeah. And now I'm getting like 10 grand a month commission checks. Uh, uh, I had owed my dad a bunch of money, and

52:56Which I did every year, but because I made minimal money and had custody of kids, every time at tax season I'd get a fucking gigantic tax refund. And so I was a safe guy to loan money to. Mm-hmm. But I'm paying my dad off- $100 bills, like So, uh, you know what happens when you don't make a lot of money and then you start making a lot of money? Yeah. What happens? You start spending a lot of money. Spend a lot of fucking money, yeah. Yeah. And now I, uh, I have this Opana plug. Yeah. Uh And you're zinging on Opanas. Fucking loving life. Yeah. Loving life. Silk shirts and all, huh? We had to dress nice to go to the fucking scam job. You couldn't show up in SBS gear to the scam job. Yeah, man. Oh, man. It was a fun time of life, man. It's like a boiler room, huh? Have you seen Wolf of Wall Street? Oh, yeah. When they're in the like garage and they're just getting started. Mm. Exactly like that. Yeah. A bunch of fucking heathens. Yeah. Just making good money. Yeah. And there's like 15 of us, and like 3 of us are making good money. Yeah. And you know, the other 12 people fucking hate us, and the managers can't tell us anything. Uh, and we love that. Yeah. Come in, you know, get a few deposits for fucking 10, 15 grand and be like, "I'm taking the rest of the day. Eat a dick." Bye. Yeah. Uh, it was a good time. Yeah. How long that last? 7 months the first time. The first time. Well, the FBI shut us down. Really? They raided the building. Uh, now I got this huge habit. I don't have any income. I'd love to tell you, uh, I made 10 grand a month and saved a bunch of money, but that's just not the fucking truth. Uh, that's the first time heroin ever sounded like a good idea. When it was over? Mm-hmm. Did y'all get

55:02You get in any trouble or anything? Or were you just like, "Ah-" Not at the time. I never really got in trouble, but uh, eventually I did get subpoenaed. Yeah. Uh, so about 5 months after the initial shutdown, I was actually renting a house from the guy that owned the company. Mm-hmm. And I'm getting behind on rent. I'm doing like anything I can to make money. And uh, he calls me up out of the blue and says, "Listen, uh, there's some things I need to tight up, tighten up with the binary options.

Six weeks in Costa Rica

55:36I need like 3 or 4 killers to go to Costa Rica. And you're gonna need to be there a month or 2. I know you got kids, but I know you're behind on your rent." You know, he came at it like he was helping me out. Yeah. And uh, we, uh, I had to get a, a passport quick. Mm-hmm. So I had to go to Detroit, 'cause they're, uh, Ohio didn't have an instant fucking passport place close to me. Uh, it was either Columbus or Detroit, and Detroit was actually closer to me.Uh, I had to pawn my TV to get the fucking passport. And, uh, did that. Pawned a couple other things, and I bought I went and bought 10 Opanas. And I told the, my woman I only bought 8. So, uh, I gave her 4. We did one. Yeah. Uh, and so I had 5 with me to take. And, uh, I got on a plane. To Costa Rica. Well, from Cleveland to Atlanta. And while I was in Atlanta, I told myself I was only gonna snort a quarter of the pill, but when I cracked it, a half cracked, and I was like, "Well, guess that's gone." Uh, I slept, I mean, as soon as we took off from Atlanta. They had to fucking wake me up in San Jose, Costa Rica. And they're like, "What the fuck is wrong with this guy" Yeah. Like, not off to a good start. One of the guys that went with me, uh, first night there, he had been there before. Uh, I'm, I'm immediately cocaine and prostitutes at the condo we're at. Like, I mean immediately. And, uh, I've never been a sex-driven guy. That's not, uh, a big part of my story, but, uh, that was pretty cool. You know. Uh, but he was an opioid addict as well, but he had gotten prescribed Suboxone. Mm-hmm. And he had brought 60 with him, and he, uh

57:49I don't know how you feel about Suboxone. We've never had that conversation. But he knew damn well he didn't need to take 2 a day- Mm to just not have withdrawals. He maybe was taking a quarter a day. So he had no problem literally just giving me 10 of them strips. So I didn't have a lot of, uh, insecurity about running out of my Opanas, which happened fast. Yeah. You know. As soon as I knew I had those, it was like, "Oh, I should just do these as fast as I can." Mm-hmm. first fucking day in the office, I'm supposed to be training these Costa Ricans, and I got pudding hanging down my fucking shirt and- not off to a good start. Yeah. Uh, but after about 4 or 5 days, uh, I've always been a good worker. Mm-hmm. So that, uh, was an interesting part of life. I was there 6 weeks total. What went down? Lots of cocaine, quite a few prostitutes. Uh, I got lost in a favela. Do you know what a favela is? I have no idea. It's the ghetto. Yeah. And, uh, have you been out of the country? I have. Okay. Have you ever been to, like, the economically struggling parts? I have. They think every American's fucking rich. Yeah. So I'm hanging out with these Costa Rican version of the Jackass squad. They're riding around in this fucking Volkswagen bus doing, like, skateboard tricks, and I'm just looking for cocaine. And somehow I got separated with them, and eventually they found me, like, 3 hours later just walking in a trance. And they're like, "Dude, people will fucking- Kill you. Yes. You cannot just fucking go. This is not America. Yeah. Uh, I actually heard them when they said that, but that was a little sketchy. Uh- So you only stayed there for 6 weeks? It felt like a long time. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. So what, you get a check when you come back, or? No. Uh, 1,500 a week, uh, and they pay for everything while you're there. Mm-hmm. Now, was the money going back home, or were you getting the money there, or how was that? I mean, they were handing me $1,500 cash. So you were sending, what, 1,000 back? Well, she only thought I was making 1,000 a week. Well, you spending- I'm sending about 4 or 500 back a week. So you're just chilling with a grand a week in Costa Rica- Yeah, you want to- with $8 grams of cocaine, okay? Yeah. Yeah, dude, it was crazy. And I went to the exchange place- Yeah

1:00:24and I was And they have a different, uh, currency. Yeah. The colono or colon- Yeah whatever it is. is. I was like, "How much USD for a million colones" And they were like, they did the math and it was like $2,300. And I was like, "Do it." I had a million colones. And I called back home and I was like, "Baby, we did it. I'm a fucking millionaire." It was fucking ridiculous, dude. Uh, but by the time I got back home, uh, I was taking, I mean, the tiniest little sliver of Suboxone. Uh, I was feeling great about life. Yeah Pocket full of fucking money. Uh, really thought when I got home, uh, that somehow things could be different. I really believed that, you know? Mm-hmm Like, uh, I could be a good boyfriend, I could be a good dad. I can get a job, I can pick up and catch up on all the bills. I'm not gonna fucking, uh

1:01:28I had l- l- little bit started being an IV user before I went to Costa Rica. It wasn't like an every time thing, but, uh, any time we'd get the 10 milligram IR Opanas, uh, I would inject. Uh, but, you know, going back home, like not gonna do none of that shit. Mm-hmm. But I did. Yeah. Yeah. So what was it like? You touched down and were, was, were things good for a while or- No just instant. She never stopped. Yeah. And, uh, everybody was so full of life and vibrant in Costa Rica and, like hopeful. Like they have this whole thing, Pura Vida, which means pure life.

Coming home and the money running out

1:02:18Yeah And, uh, I caught a taste of that, but coming down that escalator, seeing her waiting for me, like You knew what it was. Dude, she looked like shit. And, uh, you know, she immediately was like, "Well, we gotta get right." And I was like, "Let's just get you Suboxone and, uh, let's go back to just smoking pot." And, uh, she wasn't having it. So I got her right probably 2 days before. The day that I did my first Opana from being back, I went and visited my dad, and he like That's when he lost hope, was that day. He'll tell, he tells me about it. You know, we're pretty open now. Sitting out back on his little deck. Just faded. Fucking zonked. Like to the point when I left, he called me to make sure I made it home. Hmm. And I was like, "I don't even know what you're talking about. I'm fucking fine." Yeah. And then it was just, uh, shortly after, within weeks, uh, the money ran out. Uh, while I was gone, the girlfriend had developed like patterns of, uh, and new connections. She left shortly after. Mm-hmm. Uh, I held onto the house for maybe a month or 2 after she left and, uh, did what most addicts do when things get unbearably tough.

Back at his mother's house

1:04:06I moved in with my mother. Yeah. So you and the kids. Now, this is the first time I ever lived with Patience too, remember. Yeah. My youngest lived with her the whole time, which, uh, yeah, that was, uh, interesting. My stepfather's still in the picture at the time. Mm-hmm. Uh, I come with, uh, no income at the time. Quincy gets his Social Security check, so it's based off my income, so if I'm wo- if I'm not working, it's $700, $800 a month. Gang of fucking food stamps. And, uh, first month I give it all over to him. Mm-hmm. But now I have built-in babysitter. Mm-hmm. Never had that. I always just partied with the kids upstairs, but now I can just go. And I had that taste of freedom while I was in Costa Rica, what that felt like. So I would just disappear. Not, uh

1:05:20Started siphoning money away from the house, selling the food stamps, keeping the Social Security check. Was, uh, quickly back on the needle. Mm-hmm. Intermittently seeing the, now the ex-girlfriend. Uh, overdosed for the first time. Hmm. Uh, I need money. I had a friend that moved to Washington. Uh, he fucking mailed me a quarter pound of weed. Guess who got it? My mother. Mom. She's kicking me out and I was like, "All right, I'm gonna leave. But if I'm gonna leave, I'm gonna need that quarter pound of weed." Mm. And she's like, "You fucking need that like you need a hole in the head." Mm-hmm. And I was like, "Well, maybe I need that too." But she gave me the weed, which, uh, got me a place to stay for a little while and, uh, you know, I'm, um, hustling the best I can, getting people, like, grams and cutting it to keep my habit okay. Uh, end up living in a fucking trap house. Uh, my sister was like

1:06:48She's living, uh, in Spartanburg at the time. Uh, calls me up one night. Uh, my sister always has an innate need to fix. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and we have that, uh, combined resentment against my mother all the way back from when Jamie died.

A new start in South Carolina

1:07:09And she says, "You and the kids," she says, "come live with us." Uh, I used up everything I could, grinded down everything to the lowest point it could, and, uh, shortly before New Year's 2017, went and ripped the kids out of my mother's house and, uh, paid somebody 100 bucks to drive us to Charleston, West Virginia to meet my sister. So sister's there to pick you up? Yeah. Where do we go from there? Uh, 560 Zimmerman Road, out in the country. I, uh, I begged anybody to trade me anything I had for, like, anything to take with me. Mm-hmm. I couldn't even get a Suboxone. Did my final rinse in the road stop bathroom. Kept the rig. Yeah. Kept the rig. Wishful thinking. Yeah. Detoxed. I remember drinking New Year's Eve in total fucking withdrawal, and, uh, it did not help. Mm. I remember waking up and puking, I mean, all over my sister's floor. Uh, but I got through it. Uh, they helped me get a car. Pretty nice little f- it was like a Ford Tempo. Some old lady's car. It was actually a nice car. Mm-hmm. Got a job, uh, Duke's Mayonnaise. Nice. Yeah. Never even had heard of Duke's Mayonnaise prior to that. Shout out Duke's Mayonnaise. Shout out Hellmann's. Nah, fuck Hellmann's. No, don't go there, buddy. Whatever, dude. Yeah. You understand where you're at. I know right where I'm at- It's all good

1:09:32but I also know what's in my refrigerator. Yeah. Yeah. You would be a Hellmann's eater. I mean, it's not your fault you don't know what's good, buddy. I forgive you. But, uh, I do pretty well for quite a while, m-maybe 4 or 5 months. Uh, remember that thing I said about you can't fake intention? Yeah. And, uh, the universe, God, will put in front of you whatever you're truly seeking for. Uh, I believe that wholeheartedly. What were you seeking? All I knew. There was no new ideas. There was just, uh, the substance got removed, but no id- new ideas plugged in. You know, uh, all I'm living for is what I think my sister wants. Yeah. And all I know is to pretend to give people what they want, and behind their backs do what I would like to do, which is to get outside of myself, and I only know one way to do that at the time, and I start smoking pot again. And, uh, and I still do all right. Yeah. Just smoking pot. Uh, start doing a little cocaine. Uh, I did manage to score a couple 30 milligram, uh, like oxys, like real ones. Now, this is before- Yeah

1:11:06the fentanyl stuff. But, uh, it didn't grab me. But what really happened is, uh, my sister's a nurse. Mm.

Needles and cocaine

1:11:16And I found a needle, and I injected cocaine for the first time. Uh-oh, here we go. Have you ever injected cocaine? No, I don't mess with needles. Okay. I've injected e- I've heard, though any substance, every substance I possibly could. Yeah. The rush from the injection of cocaine Uh, have you ever taken a gigantic hit of crack? Absolutely. Okay, okay. Oh, yeah. You know the train coming down the tracks- Absolutely and bluh. Mm. It's like that, but multiplied. Highly multiplied. Oh, man. I'm off. Space. I mean, uh, I'm not shooting up at work right away. Yeah. But as soon as I get home- Mm

1:12:10you know, as much as I can afford, and, uh, if I go through it quick enough, I'll run out and get more. Mm-hmm. Uh, so I think shortly after that starts, they ask me to leave. Yeah, I'm like, how do you hide that? You know? I mean, shooting cocaine, like So we get a place in Moore, South Carolina. I have, uh, through Duke's mayonnaise, I'm pretty established there now. Uh, when you sign up for insurance, you can, like, before taxes get taken out, set so much money aside for medical bills and they'll give you, like, a credit card. Mm-hmm. And then you can order, like, Tylenol, you know, just little medical stuff, and I start researching that. And you know what else you can order? What's that? Boxes of needles. Needles. Wow. So the day we move in, I get a, a box of 100 fucking, uh, diabetic needles sent to the house. My, uh, oldest nephew is, uh, following in my footsteps, living life like me. Mm-hmm. Uh, but he's lived here his whole life. He's pretty plugged in, and he knows where to get a bag of dope. Mm. And I, honestly, other than those couple oxys, uh, just

1:13:49I say just, just shooting cocaine, no big deal. Uh, my car's broke down. My sister is still looking out for me. They're loaning me their extra car. I take the day off. We drive to Greenville.

Fentanyl, DSS and a second overdose

1:14:05We get this little wax paper with a skull stamped on it, tied up with twine. Hmm. They don't have that in Ohio. Mm-hmm. Not that, like Drive all the way back, and I'm a little scared. I, I mean, I put nothing in that fucking spoon, and I remember walking out saying, "I'm not even sure if this is real." Mm. Fucking paramedics coming through the door. Mm-hmm. Uh, I refuse service. I'm, I'm a mouthy motherfucker with, uh, anybody, uh, in charge. The police come and I'm like, "You're not even fucking allowed in here." Uh, my nephew hides the bag of dope, but they find, uh, all my weed pipes. They find the box of needles, and they're like

1:15:03I'm like, "You're not allowed to touch any of this shit." And they're like, "Fucking sue us, dude. Fuck you." Yeah. They take everything. Uh, I'm so mouthy they call DSS. Mm. Uh, and DSS calls my sister, and my sister takes the kids. I write some fucking corny fucking message on Facebook, "Goodbye, world." Walk to the store, buy a bunch of snacks. And, uh, yeah, I did a rat's nostrils worse the first time. But this time I snort a lot. Overdose again. Uh, and my sister's blowing my phone up 'cause she sees my cornball message on Facebook.They, uh, kick my door in. I'm blue, almost gone.

Narcan and the hospital

1:16:11Uh, Narcan me 3 or 4 times. I got to see the body cam footage of it. It's pretty fucking gross. When I pop up, I pop up and try to run. Mm-hmm. They have to tackle me. Uh, while I had nodded out, uh, I had let a cigarette just melt my fucking skin right here. I got a nice, nice little scar right there. If we ever go swimming, I'll show it to you. Hmm. Uh, I go to the hospital. I'm begging to be released, and, uh, this really sweet nurse is like, "Sweetheart, you're not going home. to jail." Hmm. Uh, pretty low part. I'd love to tell you I got better after that, but, uh, I didn't. It was the heroin, it wasn't me. Yeah. You know, I just had used it one time and, uh, you know, even when DSS was threatening to take my kids away, I was like, "Listen, I'm gonna op pass a drug test in 3 fucking days." You know what their response was? They sent everybody to get hair tests. Yeah. The landlord found out, evicted me. That dude that I'd started smoking weed with, uh, at Duke's, I moved in with him. Disappeared. Probably the longest I went without talking to my children in their entire life, probably 5 or 6 months. Did some outpatient stuff at, uh, Phoenix Center, uh, for the courts, not because I wanted to. Yeah. Faked every single drug test I went to. Uh, but I will tell you the truth, I felt something in that group. Like, there was a language they spoke that I understood, and maybe even spoke it better than them. Like, I could feel that. That seed was planted there. Eventually, uh, I made up with my sister and I would go, like, stay a night, stay a weekend, and, uh, we rinsed and repeated almost the exact same thing. I built up a life enough for them to trust me. They let me move in until things got gross, and the kids and I got a, uh, a trailer in Greer. Mm-hmm. I had a job at Sweet Street. It's local here. They make cookies. Mm-hmm. Lost the job. The car got repossessed. And, uh, yet again, I did what most addicts do when there are no more choices. I moved back in with mama. Mm-hmm. And, uh, that would be, like, March 2019.

The last run: spring 2019

1:19:37Then the last time I used is in May of 2019. So this last run, it didn't last long. Mm-hmm. Uh, I tried meth for the first time. And I remember the first time I did meth, of course I shot it, 'cause at that time, that's the only way I use now. Mm-hmm. And, uh, when it fucking hits my blood, I'm like, "I'm gonna fucking write a book." Uh, but it made me feel like I was locked inside myself. It was gross. I didn't like it, luckily. Seen, uh, some gross things with that substance. But, uh, I started going to Toledo to get shit from, uh, from the Mexicanos. And this is, uh

1:20:32Fentanyl's just starting to become a thing, really. Mm-hmm. At least where I'm at, you know. I have a, a pretty decent job, a day shift job. I told my mother I had needed some things: car, a job, and my kids. If I had those things, I, I'd be okay. But it wasn't enough. Things got dark fast. I'm, you know, stealing money from my mother. My mother's-- My stepfather had died, like, a year earlier, so she's a fucking widow. She's just looking for some peace and comfort and, uh, to be surrounded by people that love her and that she loves and, uh, I, I just spread through the life like some kind of fucking toxic poison.

May 14, 2019: found in the bathroom

1:21:40Uh, but, uh, it all came to a head May 14th. Uh, I had to be to work at 7:00. I got up at 6:00, had a little bit of dope left to do. Uh, I always used the downstairs bathroom because you could hear people coming down the steps. And, uh, my daughter Olivia knocked on the door asking if I was in there. I said, "Yeah. Could you go get a Gatorade out of my car, please" And, uh, how God works. When she went outside to get the Gatorade out of the fucking car, she locked herself out of the car or out of the house, and I fell out. So she's pounding on windows, on doors, not knowing I'm overdosed in the bathroom, but it's fucking cold in the mornings and, uh, she needs to get ready for school. If she's not pounding on the windows, uh, nobody ever finds me. Eventually they find me and I, I come back to without anything somehow. I don't know if you know what it feels like to be, like, found out, saw through. Mm-hmm. It's, uh, it was a new feeling for me. I couldn't, uh, spin a web of lies out of this one. I had known I was a drug addict, that I had a real problem. Mm-hmm. But I didn't know they knew. You know, I, I was caught. I was found out. It was over. I, I was defeated. Uh, and somebody else says with another substance, "Heroin was my master." Mm-hmm. Uh, my mind opened, uh, not to what I needed, just that I don't know what

1:23:54I don't know. There's no plan. Uh, things move fast, though. Uh, in the state of Ohio, you can get provisional Medicare coverage, Medicaid coverage rather, uh, if you have a, a bad enough need for it. Mm-hmm. And the same place that approves it, the health department also has a detox. So they told me to come in, that they'll get me insurance and I'll have a bed. Never even considered going to treatment before then.

Detox in Ohio

1:24:36So I went to detox. I, uh, puked all over the intake lady's office. And, uh, they're pretty generous with the comfort meds, so they hit me in the ass with phenobarbital. Nice. And I probably slept 40 hours. Woke up, walked up to the window for the comfort meds, like, "Take another one of those shots." Uh, no, they didn't give me no more. Uh, 5 days in, this really sweet- Mm-hmm woman pulled me into an office and, uh, asked me what I wanted to do next. And, uh, in my work I h- I hear a very similar sentiment, a, a thought pattern that, uh, if I can just get the substance eliminated from my body, then I'm okay. Mm-hmm. The substance is the problem. Yeah. So I'm like, "God, just, I can breathe. I don't need to do the dope anymore. I can

1:25:48I, I'm ready to go home. I, I need my kids." Mm-hmm. "I need my family." they had enough and I'm not welcome there.

Treatment in Warren, Ohio

1:25:59So I went to, uh, treatmentAbout, uh, hour and a half to the east of where I grew up, where I was living, Warren, Ohio. Mm-hmm. Which is a, a huge part of my story. I can't say enough good things about the recovery in Warren, Ohio. Hmm. It, uh, changed my life. Warren, Ohio. What was treatment like? Well, like most things in my life, there was a, a sense of duality to it. I, uh, would love to tell you I hit the ground running with this, like, keen, open mind and, uh, I really wanted to recover. But, uh, there was this, like, kumbaya vibe and everyone saying, "Oh, we fucking love you." And I'm like, "Motherfucker, you don't even know me." Fucking kick rocks. Fuck away from me with that bullshit. Uh, still somewhat convinced that a separation from substance, uh, was all I really needed. Like, that shit's cool for you guys and, uh, you know, these fucking guys are like, "You gotta pray." And they, they're over in the corner going, "Oh, Father God, Father God." And like, if that's what I need, I don't need it. Yeah. I'm not chasing that 'cause y'all fucking look like idiots. If, if, if you think back, where are you at, like, emotionally, right? 'Cause you have this love for your kids, that's evident. I mean, it g- it's through the story, right? But then, like you say, there's this duality of, like, being closed off. Mm-hmm. J- w- was there anything, like did these things kinda connect at all? Was there, like a hurting or a, like a longing or a fear or what? No. I was, uh, vapid, empty. Hmm. A shell. Opinionated. Ignorant and arrogant at the exact same time. Mm-hmm. Uh, a couple things happened.

Family day and a choice

1:28:29Uh, they had family day. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I had asked my mother to c- bring the kids, of course, you know. And I don't This sounds shitty, but this is true. I don't necessarily know at the time if I wanted to see the kids or I wanted people to see me with the kids. Hmm. But I had a list of things I, I wanted. Yeah. I need a carton of cigarettes, Ma. Hmm. I need some fresh slides. I had these New Balance ones that had, like, cushions in 'em, but, uh, if I don't have foot powder, there's a real problem for me. And if there's a real problem for me with these fucking slides, there's a real problem for everybody in my general vicinity. Uh, so a longing, a longing to not have fucking stinky feet, uh. But, uh- Sounds extremely self-centered to- Yeah, to the fucking core, buddy. Yeah. I'm not hiding that from you. Yeah. Uh, I was a self-absorbed, selfish, self-centered

1:29:40Still, uh, at that time, I'm 6'2", 153 pounds. Hmm. Uh, skin and bones. When I used, uh, I puked. Yeah. A lot. Mm-hmm. But, uh, anyway, family day. I'm trying to think and get the ages right. Quincy's 15, Olivia's 13, and Patience is 11. My mother, she brings me a carton of cigarettes. She brings me some Adidas fucking, uh, slides, pack of socks. She's a good woman. She loves me. Mm-hmm. There's a minimum age that kids are allowed to come into the treatment center, and it's 12. So, the person that's checking her in after my mother fills out the form and says, you know, "15, 13, 11," she's like, "Hey, just change it. change it." And, uh, my mother won't do it. Hmm. She makes a fucking scene. Now, uh, they come and get me. They allow me to spend, like, 5 minutes with them. And I have this choice where I sorta have this legitimate reason to be resentful, angry, indignant, and, uh, act like a fucking idiot. I'm sitting outside, and there had been a tech that

1:31:55I couldn't sleep when I was in treatment, uh, and you weren't allowed out of your bed till 5:00, but at 5:01 I was outside. Mm-hmm. And nobody else is up. And him and I would talk and, uh, he literally told me what I just told you. "Well, dude, you got a choice." And, uh, I, I chose to just let it go. I probably had never made such an adult decision prior to that in my life. Yeah. If you gave me a reason to be right, I sure as fuck was gonna take it prior to that. Yeah. But I'm still not paying attention in group when, uh, every day at 7:00, uh, any fellowship, uh, there, even though it's 30 minutes from the birthplace of Alcoholics Anonymous, uh, as far as 12-step, uh, communities go, they're very liberal with, uh, their ideology as far as identification and, uh, what the subject matter is. But, you know, AA, NA, HA, CA, uh, if it had an A at the end of it and they were talking about substances, uh, they were coming. Mm-hmm. And I don't remember the guy's name. I don't remember what fellowship he was from, but do remember the first time I heard a message. And honestly, I've been navigating the world off of the strength of what this guy said, uh, my entire time in recovery. And this is what he said. This is exactly what he said.

The message that stuck

1:33:43He said, "My life's not perfect today, but I don't have to lie to anybody. I don't have to hide anything from anybody. I can wake up in the morning and I can just be me, and I can know that that's enough." And, uh, I wanna feel like that. You know how I just told you I didn't know if I wanted to see my kids or I wanted people to see with my kids? That's the way my mind works. I had been projecting images and wearing masks and pretending to be things, uh, trying to fit in, trying to fit out whole fucking life. And this guy just told me that he doesn't have to fucking do that anymore. This is powerful stuff for me, dude. That, uh, hiding behind a mask and painting an image, I'm really fucking good at it. I can hide in plain sight or stand out in plain sight. Uh, I start paying attention just a little bit. And, uh, I meet some really good people and, uh, I like genuinely laugh a few times. Like belly laugh. Hmm. You know? Oh, yeah. And, uh, much like in detox, except in- instead of a sweet little lady, this, like, grizzled man with these big bags under his eyes on the second to last day pulls me in an office and asks me what I'd like to do next. My answer's very similar. Like, I'm separated from the substance. I, I at least now have an idea of what I want life to look like. I have no clue how to make it look like that, but, uh, whatever that guy was talking about, that freedom, I want that. But, uh, I wanna go homeI wanna be with my children. You're not welcome there. Uh, I, uh, am lucky enough to say I've never been homeless. I don't know what that struggle's like. I can empathize with the folks that, uh, I help that do know what that's like, but personally I, I don't know what that's like. But, uh, that

1:36:34This is as close as I ever got. Uh, I have 0 money, so, you know, when they're mentioning, like, sober living, I'm like Well, I, I fill out an application and do an entrance interview, and, uh, my mother agrees to pay a half a month's rent. And, uh, yeah. You got 2 weeks. Yeah. Yeah. But then they give me a grant- Yeah for the other 2 weeks, so I got a month. Yeah. And I get accepted into a program called Foster Living. Uh, I have no idea what I'm walking into.

Sober living in Warren

1:37:17Uh, they picked me up Sunday morning. It's like this, uh, Warren itself is a shithole. Mm-hmm. Like, let's not get it twisted. Am I sober living directly across the street? A high-rise. Openly women of the night walking around. Mm. There, there, there's no mystery about if you want stuff, literally cross the fucking road. Yeah. But, uh, so he takes me to my room. I'm 37 at this time. You wanna know how childish and immature my mindset really is? Gotta hear this. Okay, okay. They're going over the rules of sober living. There's a chore board. The newest guy gets the shittiest chore. Mm. Which is, like, floors, and there's 3 fucking floors, and you gotta go mop, mop, mop. Uh, okay, I can do that. You gotta go to 5 meetings a week. I kinda liked meetings. That didn't bother me. Gotta have a sponsor, which I had met a, uh, an older guy, and we'll talk about that in a bit, uh, who did an H and I. And, uh, all that attracted me to this guy is he said he had only been to treatment once. Mm. But, uh

1:38:48And then he, he's like, "You gotta make your bed every day." And I was like, "Well, this is fucking bullshit." "What kind of Nazi regime are you running in here" Yeah. Uh, the guy's name is John Daly. Not the golfer, but, uh- Yeah. He took me to the Warren City Mission. I got a box full of fucking food, ramen, mac and cheese, tuna fish, a gallon of milk. Have you ever stayed in sober living? No. Milk is a big fucking deal. Yeah. Okay. Gallon of milk. I've run a few. Okay. Then you're probably aware of how fucking big a deal- I am

1:39:36milk can become. Oh, yeah. We dropped the food off. He takes me to the Sahara Club for, uh, the Sunday morning meeting. Uh, not to be confused with Favors SOS, but Sunlight of the Spirit SOS. It's in this dusty fucking basement and, uh, there's an entire wall of names and pictures. It's real. None of them people are here. That wall's serious. It's not like this size of wall. I mean, it's as big as this whole entire building wall. Mm. Uh, the meeting starts, they shut off the lights and start playing this, like, fucking jungle music. I have been to, like, H and I meetings at the treatment center, but this shit was fucking ridiculous. And, uh, they do that for 10 minutes, and after the meeting, this fucking corn ball fucking hillbilly/ghetto-type guy, uh, all things that, uh

1:40:57Pretty judgmental at the time, uh, all things in human beings that I don't like. He's like, "You got a sponsor" And I was like, "No." He's like, "I'm gonna be your sponsor." And I was like, "Nah, let's just be friends." uh, that guy later would, uh, steal the home group's fucking, uh, bank, so I think I made the right call there. Uh, when I get back, uh, I meet the guys. It's really not that much different than treatment ultimately. I'm set up to do, uh, IOP. This is where, like, uh, there's sort of a ch- framing change of mind, 'cause John's like, "Listen, uh, treatment, of course, the You, you can't get enough. You've been using and running and living life your own way forever. Uh, but IOP is not a requirement to live here." And I'm like, "Well" Dude, I've never

1:42:07I didn't even finish high school. For some reason, this idea climbed inside of me that I had to fucking go to IOP, and I had to finish it. Uh- Wow, that's a shift. Yeah. A complete follow-through. One thing I gotta correct, I have stayed in transitional living. Okay. And I did stay in an Oxford house for a period of time, 'cause my friend Frank, who I worked for, it was a condition I had to return to use, and he was like, "The only way you're gonna keep your job is if you stay if you go to Oxford." Okay. So I think that's sober living too. I think it's pretty similar- Yeah to at least the sober- Yeah living experience that I had. Yeah. And, and transitional. So sober living, the one thing is, is I try to live honestly today. So I had to

1:42:59It was just- Sorry to interrupt the cast. No, go ahead. Quincy. Hi, Quincy. N- no. You know you're on punishment. I'll get you a juice later, okay? Are you okay? Yeah. All right. Good boy. Sure. Yes. Goodbye. Thank you for that. You're- Absolutely you're very familiar with that process, my dude. Absolutely. Hey, we get You get to be a father today. Oh, I'm really good at that. No. You are. It's m- probably your greatest quality. I w- I actually We don't agree on a lot, but I would agree with you on that. It's definitely the quality I'm most proud of. Yeah. I admire that about you. Thank you. Thank you. I try really fucking hard. I know you do. Yeah, yeah. I try really hard. Uh, but anyway, uh, I wanna finish IOP. Remember way back I told you when I went to the Phoenix Center that they spoke a language I understood? Mm-hmm. And I was plunged right back into that, and excelled. Uh, when it comes to connecting with people, at least them feeling like they're connected with me, uh, I do it as well as anybody. I'll die on that hill. Mm-hmm. Uh, but, uh, I got a job. I got a sponsor. This old man, he had given me his card while I was in treatment, and I don't deal with anything till I have to deal with it, you know? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Uh, so I'm 2 weeks in, John Daly's starting to

1:44:57And who do I run into? That old fucking man. Now, yeah, I'm used to, like, somewhat of societal norms. Old people speak a certain way. They move through the world in a certain way, you know? This old man, I mean, gray hair, red cherry fucking cheeks, just the sweetest looking old man. You know what he says to me? What's that?

Meeting his sponsor Daryl

1:45:24"Why the fuck haven't you called me" It sh- it's a shock to the system. Yeah. And I was taken back. And, uh, I said, "I'm gonna call you." I called him the next day and, uh, he came and picked me up. He, he didn't talk like an old man. He drove like an old man. Uh, and, uh, he took me to this sweet little coffee shop-I didn't drink coffee then. It's like a, it becomes some sort of prerequisite if you're in recovery long enough, you start drinking coffee. Yeah. But, uh, we talk much like you and I are right now. I tell him a bit about me, he tells me a bit about him. And, uh, he asks if I'd like to move forward and I said, "Well, yeah. Yeah. I'd, I'd love for you to be my sponsor." And he said, "Well, there's something I need you to know about me." And I said, "Okay." He said, "Well, I'm a gay man." like I don't give a fuck. And this old man says, "Don't worry, you're not on my hit list." Uh, I can't tell you enough good things about Daryl, and I don't think I had the most traditional, uh, experience of working the steps as outlined in the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous. But Daryl made the steps fit what I needed. Mm-hmm. He, like, molded the program around me with the understanding, somehow he knew that when somebody asked me to help them, that I would go into that book because I wouldn't want to feel unprepared like I hated feeling when I would go to school. Hmm.

Hearing "you were a child" and learning what love is

1:47:36And, uh, Daryl was the first person that I ever openly talked to about my brother dying. And he was the first person that said the same thing that everyone had always said, that I was a child, that I couldn't have been responsible for another child. It was the first time in my entire life since that accident that I could hear those words and internalize them, and it was like years of this shit just melted right off of me. He taught me that, uh, my idea of love was like a form of manipulation, that love was not just a word to be expressed to somebody to get them to try to stay or a sentiment to try to measure things, that it was an action. It was something that we show, that we do. It's embarrassing to tell you I was a father of 3, 37 years old, and I didn't understand what love was. And that's why when you ask me for like, how was I when I was a parent and how did I feel, uh, I was so fucking confused. Uh, he taught me that, and I believed him. I didn't think he was full of shit. I never questioned. We, we worked the steps and I did them as honestly and as earnestly to the best of my ability. I never missed a day at work. Uh, I moved from, uh

1:49:14It's not to say there wasn't a little bit of trouble. A couple things happened. Uh, my mother was overwhelmed with the kids, uh, and she moved the kids back to my sister's h- here in South Carolina. Mm-hmm. Uh, I'm going through this entire process in Warren feeling better about life, about me, about my ability to be a parent, to be a son, to be a friend than I've ever felt. So I'm moving forward with the idea that my life's gonna be there. I'm gonna build the life there that I was always supposed to have.

A relationship and Daryl's advice

1:49:58Uh, there was almost a girl. Almost. You know, again, fucking Daryl. I could hear that man. I work with lots of guys now and- Mm-hmm uh, I can tell when they hear me. I, I can literally see it. And if they don't, I don't, I don't push it. But, uh, I was working at a handyman, uh, hardware store, which is funny 'cause I'm not handy at all. But I'm really good with people, and the guy had a, a soft heart for people trying to, like, get their life back together, so he gave me a job. And, uh, I had been talking to this woman that I met IOP. Yeah. Yeah. We were in love, dude. Yeah. Must be from God. Yeah. We would talk on the phone till 2:00, 3:00 in the morning and

1:50:54Anyway. That went on for, like, a week or two, and I hadn't told Daryl about it. And Daryl is the first person in my life that I didn't hide things from. Mm. And I felt like I was hiding it from him. Now, I called him an emotional wreck and said, "Could you come up to my work and just sit in the parking lot and have a conversation with me" And he did. I had never known how giving people could be prior to being in recovery. There was no, like, form of manipulation. There was no secret agenda. Like, a lot of these guys that I had in my circle just genuinely wanted to help. I never felt that before. Mm. I didn't even-- I don't even know if I even believed that it existed prior to being in, like, a, a real community of recovery. Anyway, he comes and he s- You ever know somebody that you could be in the worst head space and if they told you it's gonna be all right, you believed them? Facts. It's not a lot of people that have that, that grace, that genuine, sincere just touch. And I told him what I had been doing, and he laughed. And he said, "Chad, you're a grown man, and I want you to do whatever you wanna do, buddy. But I want you to think about this. You live in a sober living house. You don't have a car." "You work at a handyman hardware store, and you're not handy." "Uh, you don't have your kids, and you long to be with your kids. Your relationships with all of your family are in the fucking toilet. Nobody in your family knows who you are or what you're really about. And if she's okay with all those things-" " maybe you shouldn't be okay with her." I heard him. I stopped on those long conversations. Uh, she hooked up with some other dude, relapsed and, uh, you know that story. Oh, yeah. I mean- The broken record. Yes. Yeah. Uh, I did get a girlfriend when I was about 6 months into the process. She, uh, she had 18 months, so I think I was being 13 step at that point. But, uh- Okay

1:53:37it lasted, like, 3 or 4 weeks. Uh, I was so in tune with my meeting schedule that I wouldn't break it. Yeah. Like, I really was loving life and what I was doing. I just wanted to have sex. Mm-hmm. Uh, and one day she's like, wanted me to She, she was an NA lady, and I was doing AA and HA, and Daryl thought NA was fucking full of trash, ghetto fucking hicks and whatever. I just trusted Daryl. But, uh, no knock on NA. Sorry. Uh, she's like, "I deserve better." And I was like, "You know, you're right." Yeah. "You, you fucking do deserve better. I, I don't, I don't have time or energy to give you." Yeah. Uh, and that would be the last

1:54:25I wouldn't worry about women again until, like, 2023, 2024. Uh, I really put that on the back burner. Mm-hmm. So the, the first sober house I was at is called a 3quarter house. Uh, there's a curfew. It's pretty tight, you know? Yeah. Uh, I was offered by John, who was really impressed with the work that I had been doing, uh, to move to what's called a 78ths house, which would be way more in line with your experience at the Oxford House. You know, you kinda come and go as you please. Uh, you didn't have to get passes signed if you were gonna be out all night. They initially told me I could have women over. They quickly put a stop to that, though. But, uh I'm about 11, about 10 months into the process. Just got my license back. Got a shitty little Saturn SL2. Uh, I'm starting to look for places. Like, the reality of, um, making a life there in Warren is, it's becoming a real possibility, you know? Uh, any other time in my life, uh, my father would step in and loan me money and kinda help, uh, you know, exacerbate, push things along. Mm-hmm. Uh, I didn't want that t- you know, that psychic change, that- Yeah

1:56:00reframingUh, I had started to spend a lot of time with a gentleman, and he wouldn't even mind me dropping his name, but a guy by the name of Mike Fisher. And initially, I liked the way he shared in meetings. Uh, he was closer to my age. He had kids. And, uh, it's actually Fisher's my mother's maiden name, so I thought maybe somewhere maybe we were related. But I, I really trusted this guy. And, uh, this is, uh, a conversation that changed, it changed my life. Isn't that funny how a conversation can change when you really start listening? Mm-hmm. And, uh, this is, this is how it goes. He said, "Oh, okay, Chad, so you're, you're starting to look at places" And I was like, "Yeah, dude. Uh, I actually have been able to save some money. Uh, I'm 2 months away from a year. Uh, first Step said they would give me a job. Uh, New H- uh, the," what is it? "New Hope said, uh, I'm a great

1:57:05You know, I'm sponsoring fucking half a dozen guys at any given time." So there already was some sort of plan to work in recovery at the time. But, uh, he said, "Where are your kids" And I said, "Well, they live with my sister." And he says, "Oh.

The conversation that changed his plan

1:57:27Does your sister love your children" I said, "Oh, yes, of course." And he says, "Does your children love your sister" And I'm like, "Yeah, dude. What, what, what are you getting at" He says, "I just wanna make sure I'm understanding. You wanna move your kids away from everyone they know and love so that way you can be more comfortable" Boom. Just short-circuited every plan I had. You heard that. Fucking heard it. He was right. Me moving the kids there would've been as selfish as anything I had ever done. Mm. They can't trust me. I can't even trust me. What's 10 months compared to 20 fucking years of using? Yeah. What's 10 months to this guy who has this established pattern of behavior to build a fucking life, garner some trust, only to go back to the way he knows how to make himself feel okay? 10 months, it's a great accomplishment and I'm not taking anything away from that, but it is not a concrete pattern of behavior. And I'm in a bubble. Yeah. I can't use. So the conversations start to change. I did, I still kinda copped out. The plan changed to me moving to South Carolina, but to live with my sister and my kids. And it kinda seems like a, a fair stepping stone, you know, if we're rooting everything in reality. To just flat out move out on our own maybe would've been a bit too much. I don't know, but that's what we did.

Driving to South Carolina in April 2020

1:59:31So it's the end of April 2020. Do you know what's going on? COVID. Yeah. Big time COVID. Like, world shut down fucking COVID. Yeah. I'm in a Saturn SL2 with 2 18-gallon Rubbermaid totes full of the things I had collected, and now the 11 and a half months. I'm 2 weeks away from my big year, you know? Mm-hmm. And I'm gonna travel from Northeast Ohio to Spartanburg, South Carolina. It's like an apocalyptic fucking scene. I, I can't stress how crazy riding down 77 South is at the end of April 2020. Literally- No one

2:00:26fucking no one. Flashing signs, "COVID-19, stay home." I have a $500 car with an $800 stereo in it, and I'm just fucking cruising through the fucking- Yeah mountains, dude. Oh. Fucking ridiculous. car shouldn't have made it. But it did. It did. Uh, it Life's not a movie. I wanted w- you know, that fucking Hollywood moment when I pull in and everybody runs out and they're like, "Oh my God, you're still doing so great." They're clearly scared. We fucking did this before. Mm. I can feel it. Now I've been given explicit directions. Hug your children. Hug your sister. Have dinner. Have a good night. Get a good night's sleep. Wake up in the morning, call the area fucking Intergroup and find a fucking meeting. I do. And a, a very nice woman answers the Intergroup number. I tell her exactly what's going on. "I just moved to town. 2 weeks from my one year. really need a meeting." And she's like, "Sweetheart, nobody's meeting. Everything's shut down. But you might, you might find a meeting at 157 South Pine Street." I don't know what that address means at the time. I know what it means now. It's a clubhouse in Spartanburg called St. John's, and, uh, you could take the temperature of the recovery community and get, at best, mixed reviews to the quality of recovery happening in that fucking building. But, uh, I go. No meeting, but the doors are open. And, uh, I have enough courage from practicing principles to walk through and start asking questions. And, uh, I meet this grouchy fucking old man who's rigid and fucking crass, and he's like, "All right. Give me a fucking second." And he gets me a, this like vanilla envelope full of, uh, information about local AA and a list of phone numbers. And, uh, I'm like, "Listen, uh, I was told to get a temporary sponsor as soon as possible." He's like, "I fucking guess." And I say, "Okay. Now I just need to find a job now." And then he perks up and he says, "Do you think you could push a wheelbarrow full of, uh, dirt" I'm like, "Well, I think I'm qualified to push a fucking wheelbarrow, dude."

Gerald and a year of landscaping

2:04:10Uh, the guy's name is Gerald Spencer, and he's one of my dearest friends in the world now. He's, uh, I consider him my mentor. Mm-hmm. He's not even a Southern dude. He's from fucking Indiana. Out by you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man. I spent the next 6 months with my hands in dirt. I never knew that dirt could be red. I never knew that dirt was that soft. Yeah. Uh, I am 2 shades from fucking twilight in the fucking South Carolina fucking sun, lathering up with SPF fucking 50 every fucking day and, uh, having a great fucking time. Genuinely doing the hardest work I've ever done. Getting to work a half hour early and sitting outside and, uh, talking about God, talking about the program, talking about life with this grouchy old fucking guy from Indiana. Uh, my first year comes, still no meetings. Gerald puts me in his truck. We drive down to St. John's. He has the key.

One year sober

2:05:28He opens the key, opens the door rather, goes in the closet, gets me a one-year medallion, hands it to me. It's just him and I, and he says, "How'd you do it" I actually get emotional thinking about what that meant to me, dude. Mm. You know, uh, a lot of my life I, uh, felt like I missed something. Like people had something figured out that I didn't. And, uh, there's a few moments that I can recollect and look at and understand I was right where I was supposed to be, doing exactly what I was supposed to be doing. I was like, was living, and that's one of them moments.And, uh, yeah. I worked for him for a while. Uh, despite how things got bad, I had left Duke's Mayonnaise, uh, to go to the Sweet Street, the cookie factory, in good standing. Uh, the world was starting to open back up. I, uh, didn't get out of addiction completely unscathed. I do have, uh, a form of nephrotic syndrome. It's a kidney issue, so I, I need to have insurance. So, uh, it was tough to walk away from the landscaping gig 'cause I was so comfortable and happy. And, uh, when the world opened up, my life was, uh, in the dirt and sun all day, shower and go right back out to meetings. Within a month of the meetings open, I'm sponsoring a handful of guys. I'm plugged in at the Go Forth House Recovery. I'm a friend of the program. I'm immediately right back where I was in Warren, but now in Spartanburg. But, uh, as I progress through recovery, so does the amount of responsibility. And, uh, the docs from the clinic in Warren had wrote me, uh, what they said was as long of, uh, refills as they were allowed to, which is 6 months. So, uh, I just, uh, called my old boss at Duke's Mayonnaise, tracked his number down, asked him if they had a spot, and they did. So I went back to work at Duke's Mayonnaise. Uh, not exactly living by principles. I was really good at my job, and I was a batch maker, which means, uh, I had a 8hour shift, which would equate about 3 hours worth of work. Mm-hmm. And I could do the 3 hours worth of work in about an hour and a half. So I spent most of my time in Spartanburg going to meetings, but, uh, Duke's Mayonnaise is out, like, by Malden. Mm-hmm. So I'd get ahead and buzz out and go to a meeting. On the clock. Basically stealing. Uh, they got hip to it, but, uh, there was no decline in production. But they did, they did talk to me and say that you can't leave premises other than, like, to go grab a sandwich. Mm-hmm. Like

2:09:06Anyway, uh, when I lived in South Carolina the first time and I was partying before I ran back to my mother's, there was, uh, an incident, uh, at a hotel over on Wade Hampton. I was just drinking at the time. Well, a little cocaine, but mostly- Yeah just drinking. Was buffalo sober. Yeah. And, uh, the people I was with were, uh, unscrupulous. They were, you know, same type of people. Uh, the cops came. Stupid fuckers let them in. They got arrested. I didn't have anything on me. I'm drunk. I mouthed off to the police so bad that they arrested me for loitering. And of course, you know, they let me out on my own recognizance, and, uh, I never dealt with it. Oh. So that's just a quick rewind. But I, I'm playing by the rules at Duke's Mayonnaise. They said I could go get sandwiches. I go to Wendy's. I get, uh, a junior Baconator, fries, baked potato, a Frosty, and a Coke. I get pulled over. I don't think anything of it. I had a warrant. Mm.

Arrested on the clock

2:10:52And, uh, you ever been to jail sober? Can't say that I have. It's Knock on wood. It's quite a fucking experience. Let me tell you, dude. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a Greenville city charge. Do you know what that means? It's not that bad. No, it's not that bad, but- you gotta sit till the morning. Oh, yeah. 'Cause you have to see a judge. Yeah. Wait till Welcome to South Carolina. Yeah. Okay. Well- No nighttime, uh- No bonds. No. None of that. You're there. Yeah. I left work on the clock. I see the judge, tell him the truth. Dude, I'm 18 months sober, I've been to treatment, uh, I'm out here helping the community, and he's like, "Excellent, buddy. Good luck to you. Everything's dropped." Well, the brass at Duke's Mayonnaise does not take too kindly to their employees being arrested while on the clock. Mm. So we decided to part ways. We decided. Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to tell you it was mutual. See, what had happened was- Right. It's not my fault. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so fucking embarrassed. Oh, man. I can only imagine. I mean mortified. All your sponsees. It's just- Everybody knows you go to jail. Not just jail. Oh, you were leaving while you were on the clock. What kind of fucking hypocrite are you? Yeah. This is all in my head. Sure. This is all in my head. I, I spend about 3 days. A little pity party. Yeah. Hard. Yeah. I'm, I'm listening to Johnny Cash, "Hurts." I hurt myself today. Yeah. The whole fucking thing, dude. Yeah. 3 fucking days. On day 4, it's enough. When, uh, when the world's falling apart, and you work a program the way I work a program, and things are bad, what's the one surefire thing I can do? I can get in the shower, I can get dressed, and go to a fucking meeting. Mm-hmm. And I can tell on myself. And I did. And I started looking for another job.

Becoming a recovery coach

2:13:47And 2 days later, I get a call from a gentleman by the name of Lucas Coleman, who runs Greenville Transitions, who got my number from a friend, and asked me if I'd be willing to interview for a recovery coach job. Hmm. You know, it was always my intention to wanna work in recovery. And I had looked up, like, peer support in South Carolina. But, like in Warren, you could throw a stone and hit a treatment center. Mm-hmm. Like, it's not like that here. Mm-mm. So that idea, we could go even farther to say that dream, was kinda just set back, you know? Like

2:14:38then it came to me. I interviewed. They loved me. The schedule sucked. But I'm still living with my sister, so I tell her, like, "I, I wanna make this work, and I know it's gonna be difficult, and it don't make a lot of sense, but this is, uh, uh, it's like my way to get my foot in the door. I'm a, I'm a high school dropout with no intention of going back to higher learning. I have to work my way up in this field. And I know if I get my chance, I'm gonna do well in this." She agreed. So it was like, you would go in Monday morning, and you would live there till Thursday morning. Then you would be off till

2:15:30It was like 5 days, 2 days, 5 days, 2 days. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. So one week you were home a bunch, one week you were never home. Mm-hmm. And, uh, was great. Honestly, it was one of the best jobs I've e- maybe even still had com- even compared to what I do today as far as, like, really, like, climbing in and impacting people's lives, is I didn't have my voice then. Mm-hmm. I'm still learning, uh, the rippleThe, the understanding of like the wake that I create as I move through the world. I'm still understanding that and, uh, and I'm only 18 months sober. Still practically retarded. You know what I mean. I know what you mean. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so many powerful moments, uh, that I can look back and think of. Uh, so many stupid moments. Uh, I didn't file taxes in '23 or excuse me, in '21 and '22, so when I did them together. So I, I, I had like 12 grand all at once. The come up is real. Yeah. And you know what I went and bought? Like $500 worth of fireworks. And so there's, uh, 10 guys, 18 to 25, and me, and $500 worth of fireworks out in the middle of nowhere. Nice. Absolute chaos. Absolutely. I completely lost control. Yeah. Uh, but there were actual intervals of, uh, real recovery, real human moments, real connections. Uh, a trip to Charlotte to see this interactive Vincent Van Gogh. Uh, it was awful. It was boring. It was terrible. It was a terrible outing. But then we went downtown and rent them stupid little scooters. Yeah. And we rode around with the backdrop of the, the, the skyline through these cemeteries, and it's magic. Again, that idea I'm right where I'm supposed to be doing exactly what I'm supposed to be doing. Uh, it's, it's, it's hard to convey with words what that feels like. But, uh, recovery with God in mind really, really presents those real opportunities to feel that. At least it has for me. And when I work with somebody, I want to see that happen for them. But, uh, it's not without pain. That duality's idea that runs rampant through my life is real. Mm-hmm. And, uh, a young man by the name of Jordan was first. That wall that I talked about, that how real this thing is. Mm-hmm. These kids are

2:18:42They come from affluent families. They're, they're well off. Like they had a different upbringing than me, but, uh, the fucking disease don't give a shit. It's like almost, uh, some might say I'm crazy, but, uh, the disease is fair. Yeah. It doesn't care. It hates everybody equally. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well said. Very well said.

Losing young men in recovery

2:19:07But, uh, Jordan was first. Uh, nice kid. We had, uh, taken them all to Carowinds, and Jordan was a bit on the bigger side. And, uh, we all got on the same rollercoaster, except this little Asian kid was trying to push the fucking thing down on him. And he couldn't get it, and Jordan had to do the, the walk of shame and get off of it. Oh. So we like to say he's up in heaven riding all the roller coasters now. And then, uh, his parents got him a bench right outside the stadium at Clemson. Mm-hmm. And we like to say that's the most ass Jordan ever got. Uh, it's a little fucking grim, but it, it's a good joke. I like it. Okay, good. And then, uh, there was a young kid, uh, that was from Ohio. He comes from a family, they adopted him. They actually went to Russia to get him. He was their only child. Uh, the Ohio connection and this, uh

2:20:18On Sundays, most of the guys would go and spend the day with their families. Uh, but 2 guys didn't have anywhere to go. Uh, so we cruised back towards Spartanburg and we picked Quincy up and we went swimming. And Quincy is the ultimate judge of character. Mm. And it's not that he doesn't like people, he just doesn't connect with many. Mm-hmm. He, like, knows a heart when he sees one. And he spent an entire afternoon roughhousing in the pool with David. Hmm. Again, that corroding s- theme of you can't fake intention, like, it meant the world to me. That kid, his heart, his ability to connect with Quincy, like, we had a real connection. And, uh, I actually had taken a job at SCAT, the South Carolina Addiction Treatment, as a detox because the kids and I, uh, we did eventually move out of my sister's. And I just couldn't work that shift anymore. Yeah. But, uh, uh, David had got a, uh, a pressed Xanax pill, and, uh, he died so fast the, uh, the rolled up pill was still clenched in his hand. And, uh, nobody found him for almost 2 days. And, uh, I, I genuinely love David. And, uh, I have one of those, uh, picture frames that cycles through pictures in my house. And, uh, I remember David on a daily basis. He, uh, he gave me this stupid little, uh, tape measure keychain. 'Cause when they would turn their keys in, I would play with it. And, uh, it's one of my most prized possessions. Uh, SCAT was awful for me. Mm-hmm. I, uh

2:22:33There's no real connection in that. Uh, but I was growing as a professional. And I, I left SCAT and, uh, went and started professionally drug testing folks for a while. Nice. Yeah, it was actually I really enjoyed that gig, especially- That's right up your alley. Yeah. Well, you should see when people try to fake drug tests. Whizzinators anywhere? I mean, I would just tell them, "If this is not on temperature, I will not pass it. I'm not allowed to view or be suspicious unless you give me a reason." Now, being in recovery doesn't mean I'm on this war on anti-substances. Yeah. Uh, it took me a little bit of time to understand that, but even by the time I'm on the drugs testing, I, uh, I have a little bit understanding of that. Yeah. Uh, good gig. I loved the mobile drug testing, pulling up to the factories to do the, like, especially the reasonable suspicion drug tests. Mm. I was a perfect fucking guy for that job. Oh, yeah. Uh, but, uh, ego, I thought I should be making more. She had promised me, uh, you know, 40 to 50 grand a year, uh, if I passed all the certifications, which I did, of course. Uh, she just slow-rolled me on the thing. And, uh, I got hooked up with your guy Rich Jones' U-Turn Health for a little bit, which I fucking hated. Uh, I did get to do his ACE training, though. Nice. Uh, I got a lot out of that. and I worked at a camp for troubled teens. You're probably really good at that. Really. I was

2:24:28Yeah, it was fluky how much them kids loved me. But you ever seen the, uh, or read the Stanford Prison Experiment? Yeah. Okay. So you know how the, like, pretend guards became, like, mean and- Yes. that was, that's a real thing. Yeah. Uh- Yeah. Give somebody some power. Yeah, and these fucking dork goofball fuckers that took the job. Like, they couldn't help themselves. I watched this one fucking guy get smoked in the face by this 14-year-old kid. Mm. And he fucking deserved it. Mm. I was supposed to run and put him in a hold. No. No. No, and the kids are like, "What happens if one of us punches you" I'm like, "You, you better run." Yeah. Like, I quit. But, uh, shortly after, uh, my resume was out, I had just sent it out so many places I didn't even remember.

Moving into recovery work

2:25:22And, uh, Stacy Durst from, uh, Favor Upstate called me, told me they were looking for an expert. I had no clue what that meant, uh, or what it paid, and didn't much care. Uh, I interview really well. Never had an issue with that. Uh, I don't have to worry about drug tests. That's pretty fucking cool. Uh, all the time I'm working the programs. Mm-hmm. Uh, I've never really slacked on that. And there's been moments that I haven't done it, uh, to the level that I think I should be, but-I'm very plugged into the 12-step recovery community wherever I go. Mm-hmm. Uh, I don't agree with every part of it, but, uh, it, it does bring me a level of peace. Uh, I've, uh, been accused of wanting to reinvent the wheel- Mm

2:26:30with 12-step stuff. Uh, I, uh, early in recovery, I stumbled upon a letter, uh, that was wrote

The Jung letter: spirit against spirit

2:26:42Well, initially Bill Wilson wrote Carl Jung a letter saying, "Hey, I just w- wanted you to know that y- the impact you had on Roland, uh, really got this whole thing going." And then Carl Jung wrote a letter back, and, uh, he talked in depth about And I connected with it so much that, like, my thirst to be intoxicated or inebriated was never about the substance or the buzz. It, uh, was about this search for this union with God. And, uh, he went as far as to say in Latin, we would call it spiritum contra spiritus. And spiritum and spiritus are essentially the same word, and one means the m- the highest of religious experiences, and the one means the most depraving poison, meaning the one is always working against the other, and they're interchangeable, that the drug is working against the God and the God is working against the drug. And, uh, my friend that, uh, my best friend in the world who, uh, is a professor of philosophy, him and I would just talk about this. And so I, I got the, this great idea that, uh, we should start a meeting, and it should be bigger than a meeting. This is not just a meeting, it's an idea.

Starting a 12-step group

2:28:14And, uh, in April of 2023, uh, we started the SVS group of Drug Addicts Anonymous, and we chose Drug Addicts Anonymous because there was no infrastructure in our area, so essentially we could do whatever the fuck we wanted, and we didn't have to ask permission from anybody or apologize for anything. And, uh, we, uh, we didn't care about identification pieces. We openly suggested to people that they speak their truth and identify as alcoholic, addict, person in recovery, or whatever feels y- whatever makes you feel comfortable. If you have a problem and you wanna sit down and talk about it with us, and you think we, what we're offering can help, then you're fucking welcome in our room. Mm. Uh, it did not go well at first. You know, uh, Spartanburg, South Carolina is not the most, uh, open-minded place. It's a, it's a very weird recovery community, 'cause there's just not a lot of options. Mm-hmm. But it grew. Mm. And it grew. What started with 5 people, 10, 20, 50. Shit, one speaker meeting w- in this little

2:29:45Somehow I made friends with the Unitarian Church. Nice. Yeah, the liberal fucks loved me, dude. Yeah. But you know, we're packing, uh, we're packing these people that need help in their church on a weekly basis and, you know, they get to see their liberal agenda, so they love that. But anyway, I digress. Uh, it's the work that, some of the work that I'm most proud of is in the recovery community. Uh, 12-step recovery can come across as rigid and closed-minded, at least that's how I view it at times. A- and there's certain people that project that image of it more so than others. Uh, when I read that, uh, the, in the "Agnostics" about the road being broad, roomy, all-inclusive, never exclusive, I didn't just think about that as being the road to God. I thought about that as the road to being better. And who are we to be ig- incl- exclusive about any of this? These 12 steps opened my mind and gave me a path to freedom that I can't, uh, not share with people. Mm. And I don't want people getting bogged down in a dogma. I mean, that's ultimately what we're talking about, is dogma. But, uh, SVS has been a, a welcome outlet for me. It's where a lot of my, uh, outside professional attention goes. Mm. You'll see, uh, SVS gear floating around both Greenville and Spartanburg. That's also a new hobby of mine. the kids.

Raising Quincy

2:31:32Quincy's easy, dude. People, like, can look at him and, uh You know, the great thing about Quincy is he don't care. Mm-hmm. He, uh, I wanna be more like Quincy in a lot of ways. Mm. Uh, he's so genuine. There's no ulterior motive. The same thing that I was bragging up about the guys in Warren, Quincy just does that naturally. He didn't have to be taught that. Mm. But, uh, he's authentic. Fucking kid thinks he's a wizard. He just walks around with glow sticks and just I'm in awe of him and his ability to move through the world.

Olivia and breaking cycles

2:32:19Uh, my daughter, Olivia, we've had some dark moments, 'cause there was a time me being in sobriety meant, I thought, I thought it meant that I had to fight drugs. And, uh, what I guess I didn't understand most is that she's not just a character in my story. She is writing her own story, and I have to allow her the space to do that. You know, as a parent, as a father, I'm not, like, ignorant to the fact that she needs to make mistakes and grow. But what I hope more than any is she doesn't have to make the same mistakes that I made. And, uh, her with the pot and the changing of the outfits, uh, the changing of the music, the personality change scared the absolute fuck out of me, and I started fighting really, really, really hard. And, uh, much like when I was a kid and my parents fought hard, you know what she did? She fought back. Yeah. She fought back. Uh, she, uh, had a little, like, slutty phase. It's hard for a dad. I can imagine. I even locked her out of the house one night. Legit locked her out of the house. She was 16. She slept out

2:34:02We had an outside laundry room. Did it fix the problem? Fuck no. Fuck no. You know what fixed the problem? What's that? Understanding, love, compassion, tolerance, vulnerability, all the things that, uh, I learned in recovery. there, there's no, like, mystery to that. Like, if I really wanna be there for her, she has to be able to trust me, and nobody trusts a dictator. Mm. Nobody trusts anybody with their thumb all over them. But as a parent, that's how my parents were. But this recovery thing is trying to teach me how to break cycles, patterns of behavior, to recognize them, and not just recognize them or accept them, but to understand them and fucking change them. Mm. And how dare I not bring that back to my own house? Yeah. That's when it started to change. When I started to change. Mm. And when I'm telling her that I'm willing to change, now all of a sudden she's willing to look at her own self. Mm. And did she stop smoking pot? Fuck no, she didn't stop- smoking pot. The little bitch orders it from the mail. How the fuck do you do that in South Carolina? Oh. Oh, God. She's so fucking sweet, dude. How's your relationship? It's incredible. Yeah. Like, Livvy's the, uh, only human being, and I don't mean to, like, not count in Quincy, because the relationship is so much more simple with Quincy. But, uh, Livvy's the only human being I've ever been able to love in spite of everything. Yeah. In spite of anything, in spite of everything. Uh, I'll show up for Livvy no matter what.And, uh, and she's teaching me that, how to do that. Like, it's, uh

2:36:17Everything in my life was conditional for so long. And like my relationship with my family started to get better, uh, and it didn't continue to, and I hope it's not like that for everyone, but that's my story. They don't understand me. You know, I've changed so much. Uh, the world didn't change. My family didn't change. Uh, you know, we are surface level okay, and that's okay with me. I have deep and effective relationships with enough people to where I, I know where to go. Uh, I have a best friend. I have, uh, guys that I work with. So many people talk about not blurring that line between sponsor, friend, sponsee, and, uh, I go into it hoping that it eventually will blur and they will be my peer. That's my goal for every guy that I work with, is to create a peer that has the same mission to share the joy and the freedom of fucking recovery that I got, that they get. Uh, ever-growing circles. It's the only thing I ever stole from you. Thanks for that one, buddy. I mean, you, you make a, a point, um

2:37:52I think we share the same belief is, you know, my goal is to impart everything that I know and so you can take the ball and run with it. Yeah. For a long time, you know, I, I heard I, I'm- I've had to switch this phrase that I say, 'cause early, early on, you know, in working with guys in recovery, I say, "It's not a sprint, it's a marathon." Right? Because, uh, you know, it's been my experience, you know, early on is how do we get these things in place to come up this or that. But I've had to put a new spin on it. It's, it's, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon relay. Mm. Okay. 'Cause you gotta pass the baton. Yeah. Over and over again. Over and over again. Yeah. And, uh, I'm guilty as anybody. I, I, I want things, uh, you know, all things SVS, uh, to be inclusive. Mm. But I, I do it better than anybody, you know? So let me ask you this, 'cause it sounds like this is in

2:39:00It sounds like for much of your life there was no, no concept or thought of God. So- What is that for you today?

Faith, loss and finding God again

2:39:13So God started when I was, uh, a child, before Jamie died. I was, uh, a member of a thing called the Royal Rangers. Okay. It's way cooler than it sounds. It actually sounds pretty cool. Does not sound cool at all. But, uh, it was like a church Boy Scout thing, uh, that the neighbors got me involved in at the Calvary Temple in downtown Sandusky. And, uh, well, I had to have been 10 on this like, uh, basically guess what you guys would call a revival. And, uh, you know, I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior into my heart, and it meant the world to me. And, uh, Jamie died in the afternoon. In the night, my father came over and, uh, I went home with him that night. I just couldn't be at the house. And, uh, my dad lives downtown Sandusky. So in the morning when I woke up, I don't know why I thought this is what people do or should do, but I went, I went to the Calvary Temple, you know? And, uh, I know now that there was an older gentleman that spoke to me that he meant well. he said, uh, "Everything happens for a reason." And, uh, I think this is the first time I ever cursed at a, an adult as a child. So it's like, "What's the fucking reason? What's the fucking reason when I close my eyes, I see blue fucking toes with water dripping out of them? What's the fucking reason when I go to sleep, I think about my little brother on a cold steel slab with tubes running down his fucking throat, and, uh, a buzz of fucking brrr" I couldn't hear that then. And, uh, I had no more need for God. And it wasn't till recovery that that door opened and that I was never an atheist, uh, maybe not even an agnostic 'cause I had some sort of knowledge. Uh, but, uh, it's Daryl. God, uh, God will show himself to you much like the people in your life that never faking intention. I- instead of that idea of that next person that can plug me in with the substance that I want, but that next moment that can show me that God is real, that can show me that God exists, and that can show me that God is in my life. If that's what I'm searching, then f- I'm gonna fuck around and find out. Hmm. And it started with

Trees and the thread of God

2:42:21Start with trees. Uh, it was a simple, like, uh, symbol for me. I wanted to be more like a tree. I had moved and ran my whole fucking life, but you know what a tree does? It roots itself to the ground. You know what else a tree is always doing? It's always reaching for the light. Hmm. I could get behind that. Mm-hmm. I know God is not a tree, but it's a symbol to me. People get stuck on that. "Ooh, doorknob." Well, if you wanna get through the door, you gotta turn the fucking doorknob. Stop taking it literally and look as it as a fucking symbol. Hmm. I can get behind that. My mind is really good at that. Yeah. I can turn meaning into, out of anything. Uh, but, uh, God is now the thread that continues to move me through the ups and downs of life. I don't know what God looks like. I don't know how to define God. I don't know which one of the religious zealots got it right, and I don't fucking care. I just know that it's there. I know that it loves me. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I know that if I honor God the best that I can, that all them things that I just said are true and real. Uh, and he gives me the ability to sit with somebody at a hospital at their lowest absolute moment, and them to hear me. You could get any fucking jackass to go sit in that room and talk to them. But, uh, to get somebody that can be heard and can hear them, uh, it's special. What, what I'm able to do is special. And I don't say that with a big head. I just say that- Hmm

2:44:15with the idea that God gave me that ability, and to, it would be wrong of me not to acknowledge it. Yeah, there's no doubt. I mean, I've been witness to, uh, you're a special human being that has a very special gift and ability to connect when pretty much no one else can. And probably most of the moments when no one's even willing to hear, somehow they hear you. So I guess, you know, man, it's just been such an impactful conversation.

Advice for someone with no hope

2:44:53Um, kind of in closing, because our hope is, you know, hey, this will go out into the ether and, uh, it may be a Saturday morning or a Friday night or a Sunday morning where somebody's cracked out in a hotel or, you know, doing their last rents per se, uh, with no hope, nowhere to go. What are some insights or some things that you would share with them or somebody new in recovery? That I'll be you. I, I'll just be there with them. Like, I don't have to be the man with the answers. I, I want what you want. until I know in my heart, until recovery was my idea, until every last opportunity was scratched out that I could not hear anything. I understand that. And we can rebel against this idea of rock bottom in modern recovery, and I applaud people for trying to fight through that idea and provide people services. I think that's great.Uh, but I do think that that's necessary. And I don't want to rob that from anybody. But, uh, anybody sitting, uh, in their own shit, uh, I have been a guy that felt like the, the world never saw me for most of my life. And I can still feel like that, but, uh, hope's always alive. Hmm. I think that's it. Well, Chad, thank you for your time, bud. Yeah, man. I want my fruit basket, though.

After the interview: Patience

2:46:47It's hard for me to talk about Patience. You know, she was a, she was a baby when my mother, uh, when I gave her custody. And through her childhood, there were moments where I was like, uh, ready to fight. But, uh, the idea of fighting my own mother, I never could go all the way through with it. Uh, I mean, gun to my head, do I think I let her down? Yeah. Do I think when she sees the relationship that I have with Olivia that she's jealous and resentful? Absolutely. Do I try to reach out? It's fucking strange 'cause, well, you know, I send those good morning texts out and I've been sending them to her a lot longer than I've been sending them to you. And somehow she's either been convinced or convinced herself that, uh, it's empty or vapid, that it's just like a function that I do for no particular reason. And, and truthfully, the reason is to keep that bridge open. There was, uh

2:48:13We, when we first moved out of my sister's, we lived in a house that we very accurately called the shack. Absolute piece of shit. But, uh, we eventually moved to a nicer home. And I had talked to my sister and asked her about Petey moving in with us. And she was like, "I don't think, uh, Mom will fight you on this anymore." So I called my mother, asked for like a lunch and to approach the subject. This would've been about, fuck, 4 years ago. So she would've been like 14, 13. And my mother said, "Well, if that's what, if that's what Patience wants, then yeah, I'm all for it." And I talked to Patience and she initially was excited and we started to make plans. And then there was a, a very ugly fight with my mother and I. And I don't wanna make this about my mother. I want this to be about Petey. But, uh, my mother has this terrific ability that I share and that I've tried to m- diminish that when we're in an argument, we go straight for the fucking throat and we try to say the most hurtful thing. And she says to me, uh, "Yeah, yeah. You could, you ask your sisters. You're, you're not, you're not parent material." And that, uh, she, uh, Patience had told me after that, uh, that my mother said if she came to live with me that she wouldn't be my-- she wouldn't be her daughter, and she would just be her granddaughter. Our relationship has been fleeting since. It's difficult because I think about the environment that I grew up in and the perspective that I have on the world or had on the world, past tense, because I've changed so much. The way I see things has changed more than anything else. But, uh, she grew up in that same environment. So, the door is open. It is probably, uh, you know, from Alcoholics Anonymous, I'm supposed to say I don't regret the past. Uh, mostly that's true. You know, as a man that prides himself on his ability to be a father and connect with his children, to know that, uh, there's one out there, oh, that sucks. I, uh, can't wish it different. I understand that the solution to this issue is the same as every solution, every problem I've had, and that's, like, steady conscious contact. And I have not been able to crack the code to achieve that. There's always some roadblock. And part of it's me. I get that 'cause a lot of the, uh, attributes or personality traits that she has, uh, I don't hold in high regard. And, uh, I can get down on myself about that. I wanna, you know, I wanna have a s- the same relationship I have with Olivia with her, uh, but understanding she's a different person. And, uh, it's hard for me to talk about. It's, uh, the area in life that I have fallen the most short. Uh, I, I definitely love her, and I can see, like, fleeting moments of that heart inside of her that I see, uh, in so many other people. But, uh, I also see the same fucked up perspective of the world that I had for so long, and it makes my heart hurt for her. And then to think that I have the answer, she just won't fucking hear it from me. Like, the resentments that she has stops me from being the person that's gonna be the guy with the answers for this problem. I-- That fucking sucks. But I understand it, just like I couldn't hear it from my mother or father. Uh, you know. I can't imagine what that anger has gotta be like, like, as a child. Like, "Oh, you could keep them 2, but not me" So, I have to take a personal responsibility for that one. And, uh, I definitely love her. I definitely want more from her. I don't feel like we've ever had a true in-depth conversation where, uh, we've both had the ability to be vulnerable. And it's hard. You can't manufacture that. That has to be organic. It has to just happen. And, uh, again, the same solution to this problem as all the other ones is I gotta allow this to happen in God's time. Uh, it's gotta be authentic in my heart, and God'll provide. I know all the right fucking things to say. Uh, it just hurts. Just hurts. And that's all I wanna say about this. Thank you.